RSSNatalee Holloway: Joran Van der Sloot … LIAR, LIAR … Lying is not a Defense
LIAR … LIAR
Joran Van der Sloot … Lying is not a defense
However, when one gets caught off guard telling the truth that implicates you in a crime, what other recourse do you have but to lie.
In the past Joran Van der Sloot used the excuse that he lied because he was afraid and scared. He didn’t want his parents to know he had just left Natalee Holloway on the beach. So what is the reason you are lying now, when you were not being interrogated by police, but thought you were just talking to a friend? You would have no reason to lie. I think its also save to presume that any discussion of drugs used or sex being consensual would be a lie as well.
- I dropped her off at the Holiday Inn.
- I didn’t have sex with her because I didn’t have a condom
- Van der Sloot had sexual intercourse with Holloway just before she disappeared. She allegedly passed out during the sexual act, following which Van der Sloot panicked and called a friend.
- Joran van der Sloot said in a television interview Friday that he was lying when he told a friend privately he was involved in Natalee Holloway’s disappearance.
Posted February 3, 2008 by Scared Monkeys Aruba, Crime, Joran Van der Sloot, Missing Persons, Natalee Holloway | 52 comments |
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52 Responses to “Natalee Holloway: Joran Van der Sloot … LIAR, LIAR … Lying is not a Defense”
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very nice !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Why do I have a sick feeling in my stomach that this sociopathical liar is still going to get off or do short time for his part in the crime? I predicted this right from the begginning (that she was drugged, passed out or died and they panicked and dumped her at sea)….and sadly, I was correct. Not that this was a difficult crime for anyone to figure out….what mystifies me and millions of other Americans I am sure is what a tragedy of justice this has been right from the start.
Just like Beth Holloway stated, “Look what they have done to Natalee”. The crime and all the corruption in a botched investigation afterwards speaks for itself. He will do 6 years (and not even) probably get off for good behavior and serve even less time.
Thank you Peter De Vries for uncovering this scoundrel, thank you SM for covering this and my prayers and thoughts go out once again to the Holloway families for all they have endured. God is the only one left who will have mercy on the souls of all the wrong-doers and a young man so evil he would make a family suffer like this for almost 3 years by all his lies. PVDS and Anita VDSloot also should be ashamed that they hid their own son’s lies to give him his freedom at the expense of others. A teacher and a judge? Disgusting!!!!!!!!! They are a mockery to all those good people and other citizens of Aruba that have also had to deal with this crime and the embarrassment this family has caused the island because of their dishonesty and lack of morals and priciples.
We’ll never forget you, Natalee.
J4N
I’m so hoping that on Monday we will finally have all the answers to the questions. I started reading on the SM forum on the first week in June 2005 and have not missed a single day. What a journey and now at last we may get all the answers…I’ll be up watching GMA and later 20/20…..please don’t let there be a power outage !!!!!!! Thank all of you at SM for all you have done and prayers to all of Natalee’s family and friends….
I’d love to know who said she had a heart attack
or a seizure. Like which one of those ashos
was qualified to assess that? Nobody attempted
CPR, or even tried to get her some help!
THEN THEY DUMP HER
IN THE SEA. OH YEA, THATS
A REAL REASONABLE SOLUTION. That’s believable.
As far as I’m concerned… they can take
the cardiac arrest, seizure, and cocaine
overdose theories and shove them right up their
International House of Pancakes. I’ve had it
up to my neck with Joran’s lies, and the trail
of human wreckage he leaves behind in his wake.
F. of V-8, that li’l SOB needs a major attitude
adjustment.
-j4n
Joran is still trying to keep his own self styled Macho Man image by keeping repeating that he had consensual sex with Natalee and that she passed on during the encounter can you just imagine what he is saying to his friends IE: “It was so incredible that she passed on from the experience of having been with me ”
My apologies for putting this as gentle as I could but I can hear him saying that to his fellows at the bar . Deepak is also a teller of tails about his sexual conquests. IMO
these people are truly SCUM .
#2 Great post! Indeed, SM has done so much to keep the case alive and to keep us posted! These are the kind of people who make the make the world a better place to live in. Many thanks to the SM team!
I’m still confused about the 2K brothers involvement…it seems like the would have come forward if they had not been involved in some way.
Who knows what to believe at this point. Joran lies and then says, “believe me”. Then he confesses and says, “I was lying”. A truly sick person who needs a lot of help.
I cannot stop thinking of Natalee’s family. I ran out this morning to pick up some last minute items for a Super Bowl dinner and in the store the music was, “Somewhere over the Rainbow”. I stood there and cried (other patrons probably thought I was NUTS).
Whatever comes of this, Natalee will never be forgotten and forgiveness will always be a challenge.
Thank you Scared Monkeys for all that you have done.
Love to Beth and Matt and Dave and Jug and the entire family.
i read on nats blog somewhere where devries also undercover the corruption by the judge, so maybe mos is waiting for a new judge from her majestry in holland
Just in RTL4 News: Aruban PM Oduber sais: JvdSloot has to stop now bringing more damage to Aruba!!!! Thus increasing the pressure on Joran!!!
Aruba is in big trouble thanks to their delicious sporter.
Joran has a problem with lying. It’s easier to lie, he says in his book. So it that he was scared the night Beth and Jug arrived in Aruba, it’s because he has a problem with lying. Was he in therapy for this? Did his parents get him counseling? Did he seek help?
This man is a loose cannon. When will he lose his temper next? Whom will he hurt and how badly? His brother, his dog, Natalee, a choller, a tourist, Peter DeVries. Who’s next? Can anyone ever believe anything he says at school, at work, socially? No. Joran is in a self-made prison and it’s partly because Joran wouldn’t listen to those who told him to lay low and keep his mouth shut. He couldn’t because he needs to brag. Brag that Natalee pursued him, wanted him. Brag on ABC and Fox. “A real man wouldn’t do that.” He knows the ropes, gambles, buys the rounds of drinks, friends go out of the way to drive him around, he passes tests without a problem even on little or no sleep, needs a case of beer to get high.
Don’t his granny and mother and father see that this man is in serious trouble? Not just for the murder of Natalee Holloway, but as a human being, if you can call him that.
Joran should try this lie out for size….
Natalee got sick and passed out so he went home and let 2K take Natalee back to the hotel.
On the way 2k realized they didn’t know what hotel to take her to. So they called Joran but he didn’t answer. They tried to wake Natalee up but she didn’t wake up. So they dumped her off at a crackhouse area and went home.
Finally, Joran gets in touch with Deepak later to see what he wanted. Deepak says he dumped her and Joran says that is bad because he took her off and under Aruban law if she is not returned to her hotel he could be charged with kidnap.
Joran wants Deepak to go get Natalee from the crackhouse area. Deepak says Leave the B, NO.
So it WASN’T that he was scared the night Beth and Jug arrived in Aruba, it’s because he has a problem with lying.
(This is how my previous post #9 should read. I type faster if I skip an occasional word
, but thought in this instance I’d clarify.)
Does anyone think the lag time between the time Peter notified Mr. Mos and now was for them to get secret permission to re-open the investigation? This way they would be all set with wire taps to catch Paulus and all the others during the fallout of Peter’s show.
I hope Peter has far reaching information about 2K, Paulus, Anita and all their judge friends.
What is that sound? It’s a ripping sound…..
LOL Read down, look who gave reviews for Joe::
http://www.tacopinalaw.com/
Sounds like he has the same resume writer that Jorge Pesquera used to get his Palm Beach Job.
http://www.tacopinalaw.com/notable.html
Read this one: Same text book defense for Joran Consensual sex again.
Staten Island Police Sergeant Cleared of Rape:
http://www.tacopinalaw.com/notable.html
Devries update:
http://www.peterrdevries.com/news-finished.htm
Beth Twitty, who was my guest the last couple of days, has already left for the United States again. She will be appearing in a well known talk show tomorrow and could not stay any longer.
Hey Joe: Non pensate che il primo caso ora elencato debba essere modificato. Conoscete che cosa significo?
http://www.tacopinalaw.com/notable.html
The first case listed as a reference.
Look at what Joe Taco says about his ethics:
From the website:
The Law Offices of Tacopina & Seigel, P.C. is a Manhattan-based law firm that focuses on criminal, civil, and securities litigation. As a firm, our mission is to bring value to our clients and achieve their goals through a commitment to results, achievement and aggressive advocacy. We do so while maintaining the highest level of professionalism, integrity, and ethical standards.
Our practice focuses primarily on the individual, providing a full range of legal services from pre-trial work all the way through to the appellate process. Collaborating with our associated office in Milan, our firm applies its skills in these areas both domestically and internationally.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
betsy: see the same resume writer that Jorge had.
Read between the lines. Talk about obfuscated BS.
Why do I feel that JK2’S are going down as scapegoats for others involvement?
Where have the Kalpoes’ lawyers been hiding? I don’ hear anything from them. Surely the Kalpoes must be aware as to what has gone down.
If there were one question that I could ask and get an answer and not a lie,
that would be why was Dennis Jacobs so adamant with Beth concerning whether Natelee had a debit card with her.
Aruba you have probably this one last chance to get it right. (no lo sople)
I feel very honored to have been a small part of JusticeforNatalee and I’m sure that there will be a tremendous turnout for the next Travel Show protests.
#7 Andy The most interesting post I have read all day…I hope you are correct, because that Judge needs THOROUGHLY investigating. If you hear any more PLEASE keep us posted, and thanks.
From the blog: http://equivocationnation.blogspot.com/
In 45 Minutes I’m going live again. But here’s a quick roundup of the day’s Holloway related events. Dutch Tabloid De Telegraaf Reported this morning that They’ve tracked down the guy responsible for tricking Joran into his confession on tape for Peter R. De Vries.
Joran van der Sloot is apparently in Hiding somewhere, leaving his grandmother’s house in a hurry this morning. Joran’s lawyer Told the media that he didn’t think last night’s call to Pauw en Witteman was ‘not a smart move’.
Joran’s parents have released a statement, declaring that their son is not in hiding and is not being arrested for anything. The Aruban Justice department is waiting for approval to arrest him, sources in the department told de Telegraaf.
Paulus, Anita and attorneys cannot stand there with thier finger in the dike for ever…IT IS ABOUT TO EXPLODE…
Looking forward to reviewing all the footage of Joran with the informer and listening to other conversations he had with this person. I bet he comes off like the sociopath he is!!
Taco Joe will not be able to do damage control!
Kalpoes don’t feel too comfortable, believe me that sociopath will take you down once he is behind bars and starts his winning and pity parties.
He will turn on you both.
Carol Armstrong, Post # 6:
Let me first state that I don’t think you are nuts for being very emotional over this atrocity and for the loss of a percious human life….I have followed this case closely from day one as well. As a mother of my own teenaged daughter… just reading about all the twists and turns of this case over the years has brought tears to my eyes several times as well, so I can definetly relate. How anyone can have such a low regard for another innocent human being’s life being is completely beyond me….it actually angers me more than it saddens me if I really think about it.
Another comment for a few other scumbags involved in this case—JOE TACOPINA for one— This man calls himself a person who is professional and ethical….GIVE ME A BREAK !!! He merely a GREEDY, MONEY MOTIVATED leech sucking off the other low-lifes in this case who are paying him- Paulus & Anita VDS….So, Joe the BIG MOUTH—just because you went to law school and passed the bar does not make you the type of person that anyone would admire…. arrogant and pompous! Joe doesn’t care that he is defending a rapist, a liar and quite possibly a murderer….afterall- as a crminal attorney it’s just his job! If Joran or anyone at Carlos & Charlies gave Natalee date-rape drugs—are they not responsible for aiding and abetting in a criminal act as well? Joran is such a loser with low self esteem that he obviously had to use the internet to meet girls and prey on American tourists to even be able to get girls to be with him. In the end, what I want to know is who are the people who can be held responsible for contributing to Natalee Holloway’s death? Impeding a criminal investigation? Obstruction of justice?? Who is the “friend” who helped dump her poor body out to sea? Why can’t both Anita and Paulus be held responsible for also lying to the authorities under oath and obstruction of justice during the investigation? Perjury is perjury. SOMEONE MUST PAY THE PENALITIES FOR THE CORRUPTION WHICH TOOK PLACE WHILE THIS CRIME WAS BEING INVESTIGATED !! Most especially, all of the people who were either directly or indirectly involved!!! Why should also the Kalpoes go unpunished when they have been privy to information all along and they never came forward when they were arrested and gave factual information to the police? This should go ALL THE WAY TO THE TOP in the Aruban ministry and hold those individuals in power AT THE TIME responsible for their failure to govern and follow and administer their OWN LAWS….Without naming names, I think we all KNOW WHO THE GUILTY PARTIES ARE!! It’s really sickening that these people will not be held accountable. I hope Beth Holloway sues the crap out of every last one of them!!!!! Hopefully, Peter DeVries will go after these dispicable individuals as well.
J4N !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Justice for the American people….. Instead of boycotting Aruba- why doesn’t anyone legally go after all of those individuals who are responsible???
Taco better haul in the kid, before they find him dangling from a basement pipe somewhere. This kid is totally unstable and a prime candidate to kick the bucket. Good riddence when he does, he will not be mourned anywhere by anyone.
Will the following website have a live broadcast of the two hour segment in Dutch on this website within the next few minutes?
http://equivocationnation.blogspot.com
Will they have English subtitles (hopeful thinking)?
Does anyone know. Thanks much I am standing by.
New girl #25
History teaches us that for centuries, in most countries, when the populace is oppressed, lied to, been made the sufferung scapegoats of corrupt leaders…………at some point in time, they rise up, riot, and throw out the corrupt and wicked.
It’s only a matter of time for ARUBA, the handwritting is on the wall, the decent people there have had it. Soon the streets will be dark.
Joran would never do the world a favor by killing himself Bob. He loves himself too much! He loves himself and puts himself at all times #1 above all others, even God.
Do you suppose he read even a page of the bible he requested the last time he was locked up? I bet not! It was all a show.
Talk about denial; Paulus and his fat ass wife do not expect an arrest? Oh brother!
Hang Joran he is worthless sexual psycopath, but Paulus is too. Remember Paulus picking up Joran, Natalee, up at McDonalds. Deepak saying youre own father he thought Natalee was back at motel that night but found out that she was with Joran and Paulus. Thats when he told Deepak do not talk or will be charged with rape. Then told them not to worry no body, just lie.
Remember Natalee I don’t know any of these people. Joran is a rapist and Paulus is rapist,murderer, pervert. Also Joran is an habitual liar. Joran might take the fall for all of it to protect Paulus. Remember Joran sore and bloody tongue wanted to tell but couldn’t because he knew it was his dad.
Hi Sharon,
I think the coverage will be a bit more “old fashioned” and not a direct translation. Imagine the difficulty.
Someone will have some stuff on You Tube tonight probably.
Nat’s friends & family, I am thinking about ya!
It makes my stomach drop out hearing about the crimes committed on her.
If I feel sick inside, I KNOW you guys
must be feeling it multiplied by 100 times!
Just wanted to say that you’re in my prayers and
my thoughts. Natalee’s life was definitely not in vain.
She’s touched millions of lives, and changed them
for the better.
In the end, the appropriate people will be nailed one way or the other, of this, I have no doubts.
We love ya.
http://tinyurl.com/2bfrqq
Getting bits and pieces of the broadcast now…
Tune in and refresh often!
http://equivocationnation.blogspot.com/
Joran’s Confession of leaving Natalie on the beach and dumped her body in the ocean. Patrick van der Eem, Peter R. De Vries’ operative has more than ten separate confessions, he never rescinded anything. Peter R. De Vries believes that he was not joking, and has been lying all along.
Posted by Olivier de Vries at 20:06 0 comments Links to this post
So Oduber is unhappy that this “girl” has turned Aruba’s tourism income stream in a downward spiral, stopped it cold. Gosh, yes indeed, a girl (with no name) has the power to stop your tourism to a grinding halt. Since it’s no surprise as to why, instead of pissing and moaning about it, why not take a leadership role and demand the guilty are punished? What a novel idea….an expression of concern and humanity! Instead of being quoted and tagged as a Minister of a 3rd rate country who hides Aruba’s 10 dirty little secrets, he should rise to the ocassion and show the world body that Aruba takes the lead to protect it’s visitors. You know, show everyone it’s perfectly safe to come back into the water. Jaws?
Bob # 25—- I certainly hope so! You are absolutely correct…history does teach us exactly what you have stated.
Only time will tell…..
#!# Betsy thanks will check You Tube later today…but got the following off of Equivocation website: UPDATE:
oran’s Confession of leaving Natalie on the beach and dumped her body in the ocean. Patrick van der Eem, Peter R. De Vries’ operative has more than ten separate confessions, he never rescinded anything. Peter R. De Vries believes that he was not joking, and has been lying all along.
A friend of mine who has been very dedicated to this case, and to the Holloway Twitty family, sent me an e-mail this morning with these thoughts:
First, if Joran says that he panicked after Natalee collapsed, called a friend, and took her body out to sea … the most that he can be convicted for, on the strength of what he said on tape, is illegal disposition of a body.
Now, no sane person would think that anyone without something to hide would take that action with someone who might still be alive. But who knows what the Aruban courts, clearly anything but dedicated to justice, might do?
So my friend’s opinion was that his sentence might be no more than time served.
Second, my friend said that the ‘confession’ makes no mention of putting her body in a container. Accordingly, that may be why JQK said her body cannot be recovered.
Again, I find it hard to believe that this would be the case, especially given that ‘test’ that found a body dumped off the Aruban shore would come back to land. But again, who knows what to believe, especially if you hear it from Aruba?
I can’t imagine this scenario as depicted above coming to pass.
But if it does, or if something like it does, please remember, people, that Aruba Tourism Authority at the end of this month is holding ‘visit Aruba’ sessions in Boston and New York; the Northeast U.S. is a prime tourism market.
We can, should, and MUST do everything that we can to ensure that Americans simply not visit Aruba ever again. To hell with Oduber and his statements … Aruba does not deserve our money, our patronage, or our people’s lives.
Let’s help ensure that it won’t get any more.
Sorry Betsy missed reading your update from Equivocation…Thx
From Equivocation:
Peter R. De Vries is upset about Joran van der Sloot’s book. He claims that Joran is lying, has been lying all along. The introduction to his book Joran wrote that he won’t find peace until the case is solved. De Vries sneers and is telling the viewers that he has been doubting Joran’s statements since the beginning, and this is why he has set up the hiddencamera action.
Patrick van der Eem claims to have been his friend the last few years, played poker with him, and bought him marijuana (legal in Holland.) They showed a bit of the footage they caught, and then cut to commercial. Patrick van der Eem recieved abot 5000 euros per month for five months. Next one coming up.
From the blog: http://equivocationnation.blogspot.com/
Sunday, 3 February 2008
Natalee Holloway Update 20; Peter R. De Vries Slams Joran’s book!! Joran knows exactly what happened!!! Confession coming up live on tape!!!
Peter R. De Vries is upset about Joran van der Sloot’s book. He claims that Joran is lying, has been lying all along. The introduction to his book Joran wrote that he won’t find peace until the case is solved. De Vries sneers and is telling the viewers that he has been doubting Joran’s statements since the beginning, and this is why he has set up the hiddencamera action.
Patrick van der Eem claims to have been his friend the last few years, played poker with him, and bought him marijuana (legal in Holland.) They showed a bit of the footage they caught, and then cut to commercial. Patrick van der Eem recieved abot 5000 euros per month for five months. Next one coming up.
Posted by Olivier de Vries at 20:33 0 comments Links to this post
I don’t think that Joran would consent to taking the rap for anyone. One sick psychopath infected with self-love, in my opinion. He’s as content to see all Aruba suffer because of him as was Adolf Hitler willing to see Germany destroyed.
Perhaps the comparison is stretched. Perhaps not.
And the house of cards begin to collapse:
Jorans “friend” was:
Patrick van der Eem claims to have been his friend the last few years, played poker with him, and bought him marijuana (legal in Holland.) They showed a bit of the footage they caught, and then cut to commercial. Patrick van der Eem received about 5,000 euros per month for five months.
Gotcha sucker!!!!!!!!!!
From http://equivocationnation.blogspot.com/
Joran met Natalee at the blackjack table. Joran and Deepak and Satish went to the casino/bar were Joran drank a jello-shot out of her belly button. She leaves with Joran, Satish and Deepak. Her friends ask her to get out of the car. She refuses and is never seen again.
When Joran, Deepak and Satish are arrested a week later, they were probably instructed by Joran’s father, a judge in training. Their original story was that they dropped her off at the Holiday inn.
According to De Vries, this story is ‘liars-logic’ Why would you lie about this, unless you know that you can’t be proven wrong? After this Joran claimed that Deepak picked him up at the beach, where he left Natalee, because she was unwilling to go. Deepak declared that this didn’t happen.
Joran apparently left his shoes at the beach, according to him. Peter says this is a telling lie. His shoes were only a few feet from where he supposedly left. Unless something else happened to the shoes.
Posted by Olivier de Vries at 20:46 0 comments Links to this post
Great translations and very fast!!!!
From http://equivocationnation.blogspot.com/
Patrick van der Eem is being interviewed by Peter R. De Vries. Apparently he met Joran at the poker table in Arnhem, at a tournament. He called him ‘Maton’, Pidgin for Murderer, jokingly. He pretended to be his friend, won his trust. Patrick van der Eem claims that it wasn’t hard to betray him. ‘Her mother deserves an honest answer. He had this coming.’
He avoided talking about the case, and started communicating with De Vries. He started doing small-time criminal odd-jobs for van der Eem, who pretended to be a very big marijuanan dealer/grower.
Wednesday the 21st of November they prepared van der Eem’s car for taping. Unfortunately, Joran was re-arrested before they could tape him. The department of Justice tried, but failed to crack Joran’s cool. They had to let him go. But, as soon as there is new evidence, they are allowed to reopen.
Joran’s release on the 7th of December has only made him bolder. But now, De Vries’ cameras are watching everything. Footage is shown of Joran calling van der Eem and bragging about not saying anything in Aruban dialect.
I wonder if Anita had a choice to make, who would she rather want to see go to prison, Paulus or Joran?
Joran is going down!
http://equivocationnation.blogspot.com/
After his release Joran stayed on Aruba for a month. On the 9th of January he returns to Holland and makes an appointment with van der Eem. They outfitted van der Eem’s range rover with three cameras and a ‘track and tracer’ system. So that de Vries and his producers can follow him everywhere.
Live Footage now. Joran is bragging about a fight he had with someone in the holiday inn in casino. His father has already arranged for a settlement. Joran is talking about his father ‘arranging’ his release.
‘I didn’t say shit. They have nothing on me anymore. Even if they find her body with my sperm in it, they can’t do shit. they’re fucking idiots.” Joran is negative about the Aruban justice department. Claims that his father wanted the Pauw en Witteman interview to get higher damages. (the same episode with the wine throwing)
Joran Called the Officers who arrested him ‘Putas’ and is also criticising Deepak and Satish Kalpoe for not ‘getting any chicks’.
Van der Eem jumps in and asks Joran about wether or not they’re going to find her. “Where the fuck is she?”
“Never to be found.”
“A higher power?”
“Yes, powers. I’m done with it. I’m just waiting for the claims.”
Peter R. De Vries rushed over to the Pauw en Witteman for the episode. This is what he knew while the episode was going on.
Posted by Olivier de Vries at 21:13 0 comments Links to this post
So the dear little sporter has a low opinion of Aruba’s law enforcement personnel. How unlike those of us who have followed this case from day one.
Maybe THAT comment will prompt Aruba to take the bastard seriously.
Joran’s friend that helped him with his boat could very easily have been his FATHER! His parents seem very proud of their GAMBLING, BAR HOPPING, WOMANIZER SON! So SAD!! Please stay out of America!
http://equivocationnation.blogspot.com/
This guy is still scooping ABC. Joran’s lawyers just offered a deal on Dutch TV!!!!!
[...] — Patrick van der Eem, who lured Joran van der Sloot in the trap on hidden cameras, was self also secretly filmed. After an interview in Aruba with a local TV-station, some [...]
[...] Joran Van der Sloot first said he lied about what had happened the night he was with Natalee Holloway because he was scared. That certainly did not stop him from lying to police and the media to this day. Lying is not a defense. [...]
Its situations like this that cause me to pray that karma really does exist. Joran is a punk, thats literally gotten away with murder. If he showed any remorse, any empathy, I’d be all too willing to cut him some slack. Instead hes boasted and apparently learned very little.
it sums up nicely, in a quote from a film…..”I’d gladly call Joran a scum bag, except that would be unfair to bags of scum, everywhere.”
Keep smiling Joran ……… you will get yours one day soon. Some other sociopath will decide to kill uou, or maybe it will take a bit longer, and someone will do to your daughter what you did to Natalie.