RSSWho’s Looking Out for the Children? Texas Appellate Court ruled TX Child Welfare Officials had no right to Take Children from Polygamist Ranch
Sometimes actions make more sense than what is legally allowed. How 
obvious was it to a common and reasonable person that polygamy was fronting as child abuse and sex with minors in Texas? CPS did its job, the judge was wrong. How repulsing is it that this cult hid behind the cloak of religion to put these children in harms way in the most unspeakable manner.
It started out with 52 girls being removed from a Polygamist compound in Texas. Soon the number ballooned to 400. Now the courts are saying that the state had no right to take the children. Because in today’s law, its all about the welfare of the children, NOT!!! What ever happened to having laws that were in the best interest of the children? A Texas Appellate Court ruled that Texas child welfare officials had no right to seize more than 400 children living at a polygamist sect’s ranch.
The Third Court of Appeals in Austin ruled that the grounds for removing the children were “legally and factually insufficient” under Texas law. They did not immediately order the return of the children.
Child welfare officials removed the children on the grounds that the sect pushed underage girls into marriage and sex and trained boys to become future perpetrators.
The appellate court ruled the chaotic hearing held last month did not demonstrate the children were in any immediate danger, the only measure of taking children from their homes without court proceedings.
I guess “legally and factually insufficient” does not take into account the vast number of teenage girls that were pregnant or already had children. I guess the courts do not consider that abuse and the fact that these children were in an environment of accepted sexual predators. Maybe the fact that half of the sect’s teen girls have been pregnant does not suggest abuse either? Or the fact that a teenager just gave birth to a baby boy does not suggest a legally and factually insufficient reason to take the children out of an abusive environment.
Some times some common sense needs to be used. However, I would ask the brilliant Texas Appellate Court, if there was no grounds … why was there no order to return the children? Hmm … maybe because the Polygamist compound was a sick den of child abuse.
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Hot Air: They may be in danger of sexual abuse but they’re not in imminent danger
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Right Wing News: Polygamists Might Get Their Kids Back
Posted May 22, 2008 by Scared Monkeys Bizarre, Child Welfare, Crime, Judicial, Sex Offender, WTF | 91 comments |
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91 Responses to “Who’s Looking Out for the Children? Texas Appellate Court ruled TX Child Welfare Officials had no right to Take Children from Polygamist Ranch”
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On this one you are wrong SM! First, I am not involved in anyway with FLDS-one wife, one husband with children! There has been NO PROOF of underaged pregnant girls, the ones they claimed were underage have all turned out to be of age! Second, CPS acted on an anonymous tip (that turned out to be false!)Imagine if that could happen to your family! They can not act on an anonomous tip or we are all in danger of losing our kids to the state! Lastly there have been NO ABUSE found in any of the kids by CPS admission-NONE! Only accusasations. The court is right! And even though I do not believe in what they do, if the court had not ruled this way we would all be in danger every day from over zealous cps workers. I thank the lord for this ruling today!
Totally agree Julie, I thought at the time it was rather over zealous, anonymous tips should be treated with kid-gloves, the removal of ALL these children will have done untold damage to them, and must have been very traumatic. Surely investigations could have been done much more sensitively, these children are very shielded from the outside world, with no real understanding of the way we live, civil proceedings will, i think, follow.
how very very sad and tragic that they are sending these children back into the cult…of course your gonna defend their practices if you are part of their following… it’s called brainwashed… it is not natural for girls to be handed over at an early age for breeding and marriage… they have no choice in the matter
look at those women … that live on the compound … they resemble the stepford wives in that they all think alike and look alike in this case… these kids are home schooled by women that are more likely not following the guildlines for home schooling… how disgusting that a judge would rule in their favor…
I TOTALY DISAGREE WITH YOU JULIE
AND THATS MY GIVEN RIGHT……..
MORE SO HOW SICK THAT THESE OLD MEN TAKE THESE GIRLS VIRGINITY… SOMETHING THAT IS MEANT FOR A SPECIAL AND BEAUTIFUL RELATIONSHIP…
SICK SICK… THEY SPREAD THEIR DNA AMONGST MANY WOMEN… ONE WIFE IS NOT ENOUGH THEY HAVE TO HAVE MANY…. WHATS THE PURPOSE OF THIS…
Julie … have you listened to the testimonies of the women who have escaped from that mind-controlling life style. These women confirm that there are unions between underage children and older men. These women confirm physical and mental abuse of both mothers and children. Just think about the implications … put yourself in that child’s place.
I do not care if the child claims on a stack of Bibles that it was consensual … it is nothing short of rape in the first degree. For crying out loud … the old gaffer who was interviewed on Nancy Grace last night would not deny that he recently fathered a child with a sixteen year old girl.
Julie … just attempt to find one young teen outside of the compound that would welcome sex with an older man.
If there are not laws which protect the rights of those children … then they had better be created … real quick.
It is a sad day when the law can be used as a shield to grant these perps the right to continue to abused the most innocent.
Julie … obviously it is not your precious little daughter that is being returned to that compound … it is not your daughter who is about to be brainwashed that it is obedience to God to submit to pedophiles or … you would be outraged.
Janet
tamilosmom
thank you
thank you I agree this is totaly bazaar … underage sex giving their precious virginity to an old geezer…. I have daughters I care what happends to those girls…………….
tamikos mom
is what I meant to say
I think it was wrong of them to take the chidren out in the first place. Did we not learn anything from the Waco disaster, and the subsequent horror that followed in OklahomaCity. They should instead have removed all the men. The women on the company would be fine. It was a completly self substained enviornment. How could the men be so greedy and self serving and say its the work of God? Punish them, but not the mothers and children.
Furthermore, What did they plan for the mothers to do for a living off the compound? This was all they knew. Maybe they could add to the welfare list and dont even get me started on that.
Always!!! You are spot on, it is so obvious, the BEST thing to have done was too remove the men. The children would have then been in their own surroundings and social workers etc could have conducted investigatons there, therefore reducing the trauma, no point traumatising kids who are in loving family units.
I agree with the court ruling for one reason… and it’s a Constitutional reason. This was always a case of religious persecution in my eyes and I believe the court got this one completely correct.
I’m not privy to the words of the victims here, and I’m not sure anyone truly is. It’s an on going investigation and the authorities were back at the ranch in the last few days to see if there were more children that had either just arrived or they missed in the first instance.
Although I certainly don’t think that adults should be engaging in sex with children whether in a marriage or not, I don’t think the authorities should be able to move-in on any group because they think it’s a “cult”. These people are free to practice their religion free from government persecution. This one is simple.
I see a lawsuit here…
If this was a case of child abuse, it hardly makes any sense to round up an entire society because the police have a “tip”. This case was not handled correctly and if there were / are cases of child abuse, the authorities should have investigated those alleged complaints on an individual basis. This would have to be the largest conspiracy of child abuse in US history. I’m not sure I’m buying it ~ yet.
Serious violations of the Constitution and Bill of Rights, in my opinion.
9. always 1 on May 22nd, 2008 4:44 pm
Furthermore, What did they plan for the mothers to do for a living off the compound? This was all they knew. Maybe they could add to the welfare list and dont even get me started on that.
+++++++++
These women were added to the welfare list the when their first child was born.
This “legalized” child sex ring is also being supported by the taxpayer. Every mother on that compound is registered as “single” with children and … welfare benefits are received accordingly. Only thing is … the mothers never get their hand on the benefits. The “powers that be” in the sect “take care” of everything.
I forgot what these sects call it. But it means “justified milking of the devil”.
Janet
In 10 minutes Nancy Grace will have as a guest the then fourteen year old girl whose testimony put Warren Jeff … the leader of the compound at the center of the controversy … in jail.
Listen to this young girl and … then decide whether the children taken from the compound should be returned. Decide whether all these children are or are not at risk.
It is obvious that their “mothers” are not able or unwilling to protect them from sexual and physical and … it appears that the legal system is powerless.
This is crazy!!!
Janet
4:50 PM PST
jan
I will not change my view on this… these young girls had no choice but to have sex at a young age and marry these old geezers.. the more kids they make the more money they get from welfare from
our tax dollars…
we all have a right to our own opinion…
these young girls lives are ruined… there are no marriage certificates not even legal birth certificates….
its a cult a compund of evil doers………
cps did what was right
the judge probably did it because … he dint want the system to deal with it .. too many kids … so they send them back!!!
POLYGAMY IS ILLEGAL………………
BRIE
what is your take dear?
janet
its not only crazy it is bazaar………
#1 & #2, no you are wrong.
So you think the teens that were pregnant and gave birth were a made up story? Please.
These cults and their ilk have been operating like this for years abusing children. Hiding behind religion, is as cowardly and sick as it gets. Don’t worry, nothing we do to them will be as good as the day that they are Judged from above.
Look for the TX Legislature to change the law.
Sometimes we have to side step the law to enact what is right.
At one point in time Slavery was legal to.
R
evil cult
simple as that
11. Rob on May 22nd, 2008 5:19 pm
Although I certainly don’t think that adults should be engaging in sex with children whether in a marriage or not, I don’t think the authorities should be able to move-in on any group because they think it’s a “cult”. These people are free to practice their religion free from government persecution. This one is simple.
++++++++++++
WHAT???
The mental, physically or sexually abuse of children should not be tolerated under the guise of “freedom of religion”.
Rob … did you listen to the young lady on Nancy Grace tonight? She testified last year in court in regards to the mental, physical and sexual abuse against women and children which occured inside the locked compound where she lived. She testified regarding the grooming/brainwashing which girls were subjected to from a very young age to prepare them for “marriage”.
Warren Jeffs received a ten year jail sentence in November, 2007 for forcing this young lady into a marriage with her cousin when she was only 14 years old.
The kicker … this practice must not be looked down upon by the “mothers” at the compound in Texas. A photo of Warren Jeffs still adorned the wall of every room in the RECENT PR tour of the compound given by the “mothers” for the media.
Janet
Janet, I wouldnt let the “mothers” off easy either. How could they be such “sheep” as to go along with this? I mean, how does that work anyway? Honey, this is April, shes 12, and shes coming to live with us. I dont think so!!! And then they let their little girls go off with some older man! And teach the boys, this is the way life is. No, the only way to fix this now is to send the moms back with the children alone and never allow it to happen again.
always1
it was not wrong for them to take the children out.. as you agreed with # 1 AND 2
and I will get started on this…..
these women are getting welfare for all these kids…. our tax payers dolars…
I have daughters and would never want them to be given to an old man to take their virginity… thru no choice of their own.. that is sick sick sick…
janet’s point is right on… they shouldnt of let those kids be sent back.. now the kids will be transported somewhere else to be hidden at another compound
these are cults… evil…. many of those women are beaten where the bruises wont show,… behind those long sleeve long length dresses…
they are programmed how to act and speak … submissive… scared into submission.. how normal is that
not
p.s
and the mothers arent being punished…
cps only concern was the well being of the children.. and….the fact that young girls are getting pregnant by old men
its a breeding farm… more money…. more kids………..think of the kids not the mothers
if they were any kind of mother they wouldnt put their kids in that kind of inviroment for their daughters to grow only to be given to away ….
Some of you do not realize that if CPS would have been allowed to do this to them, they could do it to you…scary. Once again, I do not agree at all with pologamy (at all!) but there has been NO EVIDENCE that young girls have had babies…..they all have turned out to be adults! CPS trampled all over the rights of American citizens no matter how you look at it and if you think the appeals court should have ruled differently then you should go live in a communist state that police can enter your homes for any reason, even suspicion. I have been a foster parent for 13 years and I was appauled for the children on what has happened. Once again, there has been no evidence that what some of your posters are saying happened…sex rings, underage marriages, nothing! Believe me, if there was it would be all over the news. At this point all you see is allegations no proof! As a conservative I am so releaved to see this kids going back to their moms. Now, if the police need to make arrests for polygamy than they should do that and stop terrorizing the kids! I hope all the kids are provided with personal injury lawyers and CPS is sued for everything so they learn a lesson about parental rights and constitutional rights!
misskatie … according to the young lady who was on Nancy Grace tonight … the mother/child bond is never really established. Children are taken away from mothers at about year old and … they are either raised by a community of mothers in the compound or sent away to another compound.
However … the lifetime of brainwashing implies that these Mothers are not fit care providers children. They only know what they have been taught and they conform accordingly.
1. Safety only exist inside the compound wall … the outside world is an evil place.
2. Women must submit to mental, physical and sexual abuse of men.
3. The function of women is to bear children and work for the good of the community.
Sending the children back to the compound … even without the men … the cycle will be allowed to continue if there is not close supervision by CPS workers. The children need to be liberated physically, mentally, sexually and apiritually from the bounds of the theology that has imprisoned the minds of their Mothers through a life time of brainwashing and abuse.
Does that make sense?
Janet
whatever julie your entitled to your opinion
One poster said above that the men should have been removed and the women allowed to stay in place, presumably keeping the children there too.
Doesn’t this idea seem to sustain the cultural belief that women are always the zealous defenders of the children against the men?
If there were widespread sexual abuse and underage sexual relations (which legally constitutes statutory rape), and I was under the impression that there was, then I suspect that the women, by keeping silence, are as culpable as the men.
From what I’ve seen, I gather that the court’s finding was that taking out ALL of the children was too broad of an action … that although it was legitimate to assume that some were at risk, taking all of them was an action in excess.
I might well be wrong on this.
It’s a tricky situation, but I’ve seen photos of that huge, massive building isolated on the Texas plains … why in the world did they put such a big building there?
From what I’ve seen of the people and the setting, it definitely looked like a cult to me.
I agree that we should be cautious about such actions, but that need for caution doesn’t mean that it’s always wrong to act. I tend to think that the intervention was probably the right thing to do … as usual, there’s always some law that can be invoked.
The next move, I gather, will be an appeal to the Texas Supreme Court. Who knows … maybe that court will overrule the lower court.
If I were one of the Texas Rangers right now, I’d be pretty peeved at the judicial system. I wonder what the public sentiment in Texas is on this issue.
Another point to consider … had there been NO intervention, and had sexual abuse then been proven (and as I said above, I thought that it had been proven) then the court would have penalized the Texas child protection people for not doing their duty.
Looking back at what has been done is easy. Grappling with moral dilemmas is not.
I understand the point that State officials should not be allowed to over step the bounds of the law; however, when it comes to child abuse I would rather the err on the side of caution.
These cults use religion and laws for their own sick gains. All anyone had to see was the interviews of the women of this cult to see how desensitized and brainwashed they were.
It was criminal what went on and what goes on in all these types of compounds.
Just sick
R
Janet and Richard, you both make valid points. The only innocent ones in this are the children.
Constutional rights and Civil Rights, it’s total BullShi… and I disagree completely!
They can hide under their religion, and have sexual intercourse with underage girls in the name of Jesus… gimme a break!… it’s statutory rape!… In the name of God Almighty, where are the rights for these innocent victims?
The Moms, they drank the koolaid… bless them, they are brainwashed, flatlined and to my knowledge no state in the Union, US of A allows poligamy…
This is wrong!… wrong! wrong! and these children are victims, the women, are victims and these monster men, are just that, monsters hiding under the name of our precious Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ and they cheapen His love and mercy with their actions and behavior…
No excuses!…
I do think that these children and their brainwashed Mothers, should have been allowed to stay at this comppound and the monster men, should have been physically removed from this compound… it would have been better for the children and less traumatic… they know no different and these women, bless them, also, know no different… they need to be counseled and protected from their abusers… they think that this is “normal”… it’s far from that and is a criminal offense, raping and having sex with a minor… period. They need to be punished at the fullest extent of the law and these women, when they realize that their husbands… were just tha5t, preditors/perpitrators/rapists, did just that…to their own.. for their own sexual/power and control gain… took advantage of their own children… they will forever feel tremendous remorse and guilt for letting it happen… they see nothing wrong, because, they’ve been taught that it’s okay… it is NOT okay… ever!
So, with that.. I pray, that these children are protected, taught truth and that their Mothers, are counseled as well as the children and regain control and are decompressed and debrainwashed, (whatever the process is)… wow… it’s so, so, sickening… and these monsters, wow, I can think of a million and one ways to handle these disguisting piece of verman… but, God will take care of them… I pray, that these children will be taught truth and right from wrong and it’s not right, for them to be victimized and raped in the name of Jesus… sorry, I’m not buying it under any religous order, act, or what have you… it’s wrong, wrong, wrong!.. and it’s a criminal offense!… makes me sick to think that these vile vermin, would use their “religion” to hide under… it’s crap. and I’m not buying it…
Constitution. Bill of Rights or not…in the name of “religion”… that’s total Bullshi… no one has the RIGHT TO RAPE A CHILD, MOLEST A CHILD, IMPREGNATE A CHILD, A CHILD! GIMME A BREAK! in the name of Religion?…
They are victims and need to be told truth… God Almighty, would not want a child to suffer this type of heinous, outrageous, lie!… He said, if anyone causes my child to sin, it would have been better if they had a millestone tied around their neck and drowned in the bottom of the sea… that’s what God says about preditors/perpitrators/rapists/monsters…
enough!
It’s sickening and I”m not buying this B.S.!
protect these children, deprogram their Mothers and God Bless them, once they realize that they’ve all been duped and lied to, imagine their guilt and remorse?… oh, they’d kill the sob’s if they knew the truth… let em at it… it’s all sick…and so, so, wrong…
These vermin, broke the law… when is it law to have sex with a minor?
When is it appropriate to rape a child? What law is that under?
Where in the USA is it allowed by law to molest, rape, abuse a child? Where? Pray tell me…
Using Religion… to rape, molest,sodomize, impregnate, marry a minor, in the name of God, is pure evil.. in every true sense of the word… it is PURE EVIL… and our government, better Stop it… it is to my knowledge against our laws…
The children must be protected and have to be protected… regardless of “religion” or Constitution, Bill of Rights, freedom of speech crap or not… anyone can hide their evil acts or try to make it lawful under the guise of their religion… sorry, this is not the Love of Christ our Savior who Died for our sins and loves us… He’s grieving at this as well as I am and it totally, cheapens His death on the Cross for us all, by even thinking that this is permissible and okay? This is NOT okay… NOT, Nada, NO way, okay…
Put these monsters in jail/prison, lock them up, throw away the key… let the women raise these children, however, they Ithese women and children)…need to be deprogrammed and taught truth… they’ve been lied to.. they are in a cult!… BRAINWASHED…They need support, love and compassion… they are also victims, as well as these children… they are all victims…
Shame on these Monsters… pure essense of evil… they do not deserve to breathe the same air that we all are breathing…
uugghhh… it sickens me and angers me that this goes on every day!… truly, it grieves me and makes me immensely sad…
God Bless the innocent little children, who’s innocence is taken away… they are the true victims here…
Dr. Phil’s show discussing this very event a few weeks ago, was very revealing and loving,compassionate and very empathic, showing others who were caught in these lies and other sects like this, and by Gods grace, they escaped the lies… they found truth… I pray, these women find truth and their children do too and that they can get the proper counsel and heal from this heinous crime(s), done to them… it’s very sick and truly evil ~ The damage has been done… it’ll take their lifetime to undo the psychological damage(s) done and I pray, that God breaks the strongholds and traditions of generations past for these lies and crimes committed upon these women and their children ~ they are all victims, all, except the monsters who violated their very inner being/core/spirit… physically and mentally and spiritually… innocence taken in the name of religion, is the ultimate offense, crime… it’s murder.
May God restore these children and their mothers to full spiritual, mental and physical health… and may He condemn the monsters evil acts and in the end, they’ll answer for what they’ve done… yesterday, wasn’t soon enough and may the USA’s laws, begin to give these preditor monsters what they deserve… life sentences… they’ve given that to their victims… and taken away, their very innocence and murdered their very inner beings…to their core…
I pray, these children and women truly know, the true love of Christ… God is lOVE…
Bless them…
That certainly isn’t anyway for women and children to live….for many I would think they know of nothing of the outside world….this whole situation should of been dealt with long, long ago….you well know a young girl doesn’t want to have sex with an old man….can you only imagine what is going thru their minds and the damage this has done to them….
The cycle of abuse needs to be broken… they’ve bred a cycle of abuse…victimization…and these women, know no wrong… they’ve been fed lies ~ they know no different… they need to be taught truth… I can’t imagine their angst and pain having seen their children taken away, I felt badly about that, but grateful, that the children were being rescued and was torn, on how it was handled… they did their best… and it’s going to be very interesting seeing how this plays out…
There needs to be LAWS, protecting innocent children from monsters. Period…. Rape is rape… molestation/sodomization/impregnating/victimizing any child is evil… and needs to stop.
Sadly, it’s allowed, over and over and over again…
We need LAWS, laws that are and will be enforced to protect our children from sexual offenders… preditors…
What is it going to take ?
I’d llke to know… ? It’s not about sex, it’s about power and control… why are our children devalued in this country? Why?
Being a survivor myself, I’d like to know, when it will this issue be taken seriously, when will their be laws to protect our beloved innocent children? From this type of pure EViL? When?
What can we all do, who are on this blog to make change? I’ve written and spoken to my legislators)…S.Monkey’s,? Start a petition,a campaign… I’ll be the first to sign it… come on, you’ve got a wide audience, let’s do something proactive to make a positive change!!! to stop this nonsense and help protect the children from these monsters?.. please?
Is there a judge there by the name of Ric Smid…..!!!
They can’t run their compound with 400 missing welfare checks…
Kitty … it is not only in the US that a blind eye is often turn when it comes to the sexual abuse of children … Canada turns pedophiles loose after a relatively short incarcenation as long as counselling is agreed to. It most cases it is just a matter of time before another child suffers. The rights of the perps seems to always surpass those of the young victims.
My opinion is that counselling is not the answer. Most men do not view children as sexually objects so … it has to be a certain mindset. Something akin to counselling a heterosexually man not to look at women … it is not going to happen.
Kitty … I do not know what the answer is. What use to be right is now wrong and … what used to be wrong is not right.
Good Night all.
Janet
9:35 PM
come on monkeys, give me one proof that these kids were abused-cps has had them for over one month and they themselves have said they have not found any proof the kids were sexually or physically abused. Where are you getting your info? If they are abused then cps needs to follow the LAW and put put the penetrators behind bars but as it stands the police have not arrested one person! If you do not care about the constitution you are being really, really dumb-sorry but if you do not understand that you can not go in and take kids out of a home because of an anonomous tip than you are being really nieve. The law was put in place because disgrunted neighbors, employees, spouses were making FALSE allgegations and kids were being removed because of false allegations…let it happen to you and see if you care about the constitution! Just because I care about the cps following the law does not mean I think dirty old men should marry young girls what it means is that if that is the case, prosecute the men and follow the law! Why is this so hard to understand? The laws also keep us safe from over zealous cps people that will remove our kids if someone hates what we believe and calls CPS on us and they take our kids. I am all for the death penalty for people who abuse children sexually but follow the law!
Just saw a video on CNN, the compound is surrounded by a very high fence with locked gates and as they filmed the compound I never saw anything on the film that in anyway represented children living there….no playgrounds, saw no form of activity for children…
For the children going into these foster homes is going to present a totally different way of life….they will see what being a kid is all about….you play, you go to the zoo, you go to amusement parks, you play on the swings, you go to movies, you watch cartoons, there’s a Mom and a Dad and brothers and sisters, you sit down at a table and eat with your family, you go to parks, maybe some of them got to take a vacation…so what will life be for them if they are returned to the compound when they have seen and lived the other side of life…
Do you know more kids are killed, molested and abused in foster care then in their own homes. I can post the statistics if anyone wants.
Maybe the foster parents should come forward and offer to be interviewed…….I’m sure they have talked with the children….if these children are taken away from their mothers at one year of age and raised by the mothers of the compound, then the children were not taken away from their rightful mother.. they don’t have a daughter/son relationship with their parent….what kind of a life is this….just plain sick..!!!!!!
I wonder just how many welfare checks are going to that compound….
I don’t think that there is any perfect answer, or any alternative that can be guaranteed to produce no risks.
But remember back to the Jonestown cult, I believe in 1969 (would have to check that), where Jim Jones wound up ordering his people to take poison in a mass self-slaughter, rather than have “corrupt society” break up the group.
Did that happen here? Nope. But look up the current case in Britain, where there is good reason to believe that a children’s home on the isle of Jersey was, for decades, a place where abuse, and possibly homicide (that’s not clear yet), took place on a fairly large scale.
Search under “Jersey child abuse” on the Internet.
My point? It seems that there was good reason to believe that abuse was occurring at this place. It has been reported that teen girls were at the disposal of some of the men … and whatever the doctrines of this cult may have been, this constitutes statutory rape.
And in my view, any of the women who tolerated this situation (or perhaps promoted it, for whatever reason) are also responsible.
As always, the law doesn’t address the issue of right and wrong. It’s possible that the state of Texas may wind up being liable for overstepping its bounds … that’s for the courts to wrangle about … but I think that something definitely is fishy in this cult, something that goes beyond mere difference.
On balance, I think the intervention was a good thing.
Remember, too, that in Jonestown the parents (male and female) gave their young children Kool-Aid laced with sedatives. It wasn’t just men, or women, involved … it was both.
Julie (#35) says: “cps has had them for over one month and they themselves have said they have not found any proof the kids were sexually or physically abused.”
Well, if you saw, say, a bound and gagged woman, looking terrified, being pushed into the backseat of a car, what would you assume? What would you do?
Probably what most of us would think and do: a kidnapping is in progress, and call the police.
Suppose that the police intervene, stop the car, make the people identify themselves, and free the woman. She then says, “Oh, we were just playing a game, fooling around.”
(This did happen recently.)
Would you conclude that the police went outside of their rights, and owed these people an apology?
This is not an exact parallel, of course, but my point is that in an institution such as this Texas cult seems to have been, there was no independent body to safeguard the rights of these children. Or anyone else there, as in Jonestown.
In these circumstances, I think, the authorities were right to intervene.
CPS will appeal this decision. I believe they did find five girls pregnant or already mothers who were under the age of 16. I never worked in CPS but I worked for 15 years in Adult Protective Services and knew many CPS workers. They have to remove children….if one child appears to be abused all must be removed….that is the law in most states if not all. For the time being the kids aren’t going anywhere…who do you release them to. The kids ID’d numbers of mothers as their mother. The DNA results aren’t back yet. What I’m hoping will happen is that the FBI will help with prosecution for welfare fraud….Food Stamps are a federal program. Did I hear correctly that Rancho KiddieRape is worth 200 Million ?….. Remember, the feds didn’t get Al Capone on murder,etc. They got him on tax evasion. And don’t get me started on their “religion” The only sign of religion is the cross on the roof…inside no pictures of Jesus but lots of pics of Warren Jeffs and Rulon Jeffs and oh yeah the mattress in the Rape Room….just like Saddam…. God Bless Texas for starting what I hope is the downfall of these child molesters.
# Scared Monkeys on May 22nd, 2008 9:24 pm
I understand the point that State officials should not be allowed to over step the bounds of the law; however, when it comes to child abuse I would rather the err on the side of caution.
These cults use religion and laws for their own sick gains. All anyone had to see was the interviews of the women of this cult to see how desensitized and brainwashed they were.
It was criminal what went on and what goes on in all these types of compounds.
Just sick
R
+++++++++++++++
Red,
We know you understand that and are a true victim’s rights advocate. It’s common knowledge on the net.
I, too, would rather err on the side of caution also. In my opinion, the government oversteps their boundaries often under the guise of “protection”. Sometimes we need “protection” from those who claim to be the “protectors”.
One case, Elian Gonzales, screams out over-reaching by zealots. In that case Elian was deported to be with his father who had no interest in him prior to his mother drowning on her attempt to reach freedom. So many are allowed to stay in this country illegally and it’s hard to correlate this case and the polygamists.
I serious doubt this would have occurred with the new protected class of “Muslim living in America but have no desire to assimilate Americans”. Let’s remember that Muslims are practicing polygamy here in the US and are marrying women under age, usually in an “arranged marriage”.
So why was this group targeted? Obviously, it was a tipster that could have been doing a good deed or could just be someone disgruntled. I don’t know. Time will tell. I doubt there will be many “tipsters” coming from the Muslim community. Not much of a chance the “tipster” will live to make it to even the deposition.
I think that the US is separated from other cultures because we do have the Bill of Rights and the Constitution. And yes!!! that makes America a better country and way of life. Those documents protect us all from the over-reaching, all powerful, unlimited financed government.
If the US Federal Government comes after you with their unlimited supply of cash and time, you better watch out.
Protection for all, even those I don’t agree with. And there is very little to agree with in the case of the polygamists.
Eroding the rights a little at a time is certainly looking like the over-all goal and as the rights are eroded we are all at risk.
I believe this case could have been and should have been investigated in a different manner and I rarely agree with court rulings where the Constitution is concerned because the rulings always seems to go against the protecting the rights of the citizenry and in favor of the government. In this case, I think they did get it right.
Sometimes it’s the more appalling cases that demonstrate the power of the Constitution. And apparently a strict constructionist interpreted this case and ruling correctly… in my opinion.
I agree with Rob (#43) in that caution is needed, and that there is always the possibility of abuse of power by the government. Nothing can ensure that the government will always act rightly.
On the other hand, it’s easy to be wise after the fact. Above, I outlined some cases of cult insanity. Given that the children in this case were in no position to assert their own interests, is it better to wait for disaster?
I also mentioned the ongoing investigation into the Jersey, UK, child abuse scandal. This evidently continued for DECADES, and took place at a government-run establishment.
Here is a recent update … if you want to read this, be warned that it is as horrific as anything you are likely to see.
As I said, it’s easy to be wise after the fact.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article3981112.ece
I am a victims right advocate, but more so I am a “Common Sense” rights one as well. I am against governments over-stepping their authority; however, all too often child agencies never act in the best interest of the children. Danger is danger, whether it is immediate or not.
All to often we wait around until we are dealing with the death of a child rather than dealing with the issue at the beginning.
Predators use the laws to their advantage. That is why they are predators.
How often have we heard the following story?
1. A girl is sexually harassed by a predator. Oh we cant do anything to him too severe, its not like he raped her.
2. That same predator then rapes the child. Oh we cant do anything too, too severe, its not like the predator murdered the girl.
3. The predator then murders a child. Oh the outrage and the shock ,.. HOW COULD THIS HAPPEN!!!
In a cult such as this polygamist one, where they hide behind religion to exploit children and woman, this is a systemic problem, not just an individual one.
We all screamed when the Catholic Church sexual exploitation cases were exposed. What the hell does anyone think is going on here? There is a reason why these cults operate behind walls in secrecy.
Who does not understand that these people, especially the women and children are brainwashed?
What should we wait for, a child murdered? Is that immediate danger? No one would ever know it happened as the cult wall of silence would go up.
If adults want to screw their lives up, that is their own business. Do children have rights or are they property?
R
Thank you Red
Janet
If you want some insight on how the women think (not this group) read online “The Kings Daughters Magazine”
“Do children have rights or are they property?”
R
++++++++++++++
Good question and that one is hard to answer in this day and age.
Public schools say that the “own” the child during the eight hours they are in their care. Parents have been outraged for years about that. Hence home-schooling, which some say is a “cult” and not to the advantage of the child. It’s all semantics in a round about way.
The Supreme Court has ruled that the parents of a child are responsible for the actions of a minor child under the age of 18 and any damage they may do. I believe that the Supreme Court may have ruled that children under the age of 18 actually do not have any rights.
This case is very very borderline in the eyes of the law and people who are passionate about protecting kids from predators.
I’m not saying that there isn’t cause to investigate this group, because there is and was. However, the manner in which the case was handled was probably not the most prudent and opens up the citizens to a lawsuit, and the damages should a verdict in favor of the defendants occur.
In my opinion, the alleged abuse should have been investigated on an individual basis and the rights of all would not have been violated. I just can’t see lumping everyone in and avoiding a lawsuit. Someone probably has has their rights violated.
It’s extremely hard to say that everyone rounded up and now accused is responsible. And that’s where a violation most likely occurred.
I’m just looking at this from a “legal standpoint” and not a “common sense” standpoint. After-all, Government replaces common sense.
Not every case involves common sense and some of the more ridiculous rulings have favored the predator. I’m not sure what we can do about that…and I realize it outrages everyone that believes children should be protected – which includes me too.
In order to have a civilized soceity, the laws must not only protect the children from abuse, but also the people possibly erroneously accused of a crime.
I do not believe in using religion as a passport to abuse children and there are certainly groups in the country that are indeed doing just that…
but
how do you investigate this cases with out opening up a settled area of the Constitution? A good defense lawyer will go that route fast as I can post.
This one is a tuffy because certain areas of settled law have possibly been violated.
There may have been another avenue to get this case to court and not violate anyone’s rights.
Warren Jeffs was arrested and there was no violation. That was handled a good bit better than the current investigation . . . in my opinion.
Well said, Red, well said ! ! ! ! ! ps…I’m a democrat and I don’t always agree with everything you say but I’m with you on this 110%
tamikosmom
it makes alot of sense yes..
I couldnt of said it better!
I just cant believe that they will send them back
now they will be moved and disappear to other compounds.
I seen nancy grace as I always do when I am home and seen the show.
This is sad to me because the hope was that these kids could be taught a normal way of living..
they never have bonded with any particular mother they are community children
how strange….
this truly saddens me
richard
correct they didnt want to bother with all these children…
they sent them back….
kitty
I am as enraged about this as you and all these monkeys here that see the real picture
its ludicrous!!!
Richard
I am very familiar with jim ones
in that situation he was collecting social security checks for the older people.. if you remember if people wanted to leave they couldnt until that final day when he let a few go
and they were shot at the air strip.
control … money.. isolation.. abuse… he slept with the young ladies …. same setting as this texas cult.. only difference he left the united states where he could be out of the scope of politicians and family
jones oops
look at all those women how their are dressed
is that not weird look at the hair does and all are wearing blue…
I am telling ya this is strange … its cult!!!
suzy
what will they do without all the welfare checks
they depend on those checks
the cult leader wont be laughing all the way to the bank for a while!!!
hopefully never!!!!
I do hope the FBI will get them for welfare fraud
how did all these women get all this money in one city… same adresses…
doesnt welfare get a red flag
my god were talking lots of welfare checks..
these checks all go into the cults account…
richard?
do u think that the cult leader would be gutsy enough to do a jim jones thingie?
its possible but are they that brave… yeah I remember the koolaide… and jim jones in the background
saying
hurry hurry before they come take your drink….
I will never forget that !!!!
it hasnt changed much through the yrs people still follow cults … eager to fit in somewhere until its to late and you cant leave.. you have no conFidence and self esteem left
they strip your mind and re-program it…
evidenced by the way those women act dress and move about scarry creepy!!!
and like Brie
said they have no playfgrounds nothing to show these kids are living a normnl life..
they know nothing about being happy carefree children…. the world out there is foreign to them
they are taught that it is an evil life beyond the walls of the compound…
they dont realize that the evil is inside the compund by them….
THE BOOGEY MAN IS INSIDE!!!
I agree with Rob on this.
This is a case where I have to separate my regard for the Law from my personal feelings about that Sect (very bad), its founder (slimy pedophile), its male followers (insecure cretins) and its female followers (what’s with the dresses and that hair…they must be out of a Warren Jeffs’ wet dream or remind him of his mother). Nonetheless, the Appeals Court found that Texas failed to establish that specific children were in specific danger before the raid and relocation.
When I read the decision, and then examined my own attitudes about the entire affair, I have to admit that it sure looks like the Law wasn’t followed and that the raid and relocation were driven more by suspicion and innuendo than by the facts that had been established. If minors were indeed statutorily raped and then impregnated by adults (as I personally feel they were), then I’m sure (and pray) that the state will provide proof quickly.
Until then, if the standard for government action against an unpopular (even unlikeable) minority is no higher than the feelings, suspicions and prejudices of the rest of us, then God help us all.
Red
I agree 200%
well said yes….. thank you
The appeals court acknowledges sexual abuse but does not classified sexual abuse as an “immediate” or “urgent” danger.
I am positive there is not one person posting on this forum would send their little sister, daughter or grandaughter into that compound. Are the 400 children taken from the compound not just as precious? You bet they are.
Unbelieveable! I have once again been transported to the twilight zone.
Janet
+++++++++++
Texas Child Welfare Authorities Will Appeal Ruling Finding They Were Wrong to Seize Sect Kids
Friday, May 23, 2008
Child-protection officials argued that five girls at the ranch had become pregnant at 15 and 16 and that the sect pushed underage girls into marriage and sex with older men and groomed boys to enter into such unions when they grew up.
But the appeals court said the state acted too hastily in sweeping up all the children and taking them away on an emergency basis without going to court first.
“Even if one views the FLDS belief system as creating a danger of sexual abuse by grooming boys to be perpetrators of sexual abuse and raising girls to be victims of sexual abuse … there is no evidence that this danger is ‘immediate’ or ‘urgent,’” the court said.
“Evidence that children raised in this particular environment may someday have their physical health and safety threatened is not evidence that the danger is imminent enough to warrant invoking the extreme measure of immediate removal,” the court said.
More:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,357663,00.html
using the law to justify doing nothing when child abuse is suspected is cowardice in the extreme. protect the child at all costs and work out the legal problems after the children and mothers, in this case, are safe. the men involved in this case, and all those that support them would be equally happy being in the taliban.
dennisintn
Texas Child Welfare Authorities Will Appeal Ruling Finding They Were Wrong to Seize Sect Kids
Friday, May 23, 2008
“Evidence that children raised in this particular environment may someday have their physical health and safety threatened is not evidence that the danger is imminent enough to warrant invoking the extreme measure of immediate removal,” the court said.
More:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,357663,00.html
++++++++++
Do the justices on the Appeals Court have a crystal ball as to the day and hour when sexual abuse will occur against a child? Do the justices of the Appeals Court have a crystal ball that reveals the day and hour when removal from the compound could be justified.
If so … why was this crytal ball not utilized when all the other children were offered as sacrifices by the “mothers/care givers” of the compound to the “pedophiles”.
The statement released by the Appeals Court defies logic … defies common sense.
Janet
48. Rob on May 23rd, 2008 9:45 am
There may have been another avenue to get this case to court and not violate anyone’s rights.
Warren Jeffs was arrested and there was no violation. That was handled a good bit better than the current investigation . . . in my opinion.
++++++++++++
Warren Jeffs … the leader over several sects … was arrested and convicted “following” “following” “following” a 14 year old being forced into a marriage with her cousin. Where Appeals Court justices’crystal ball when this injustice was happening. Who was there as her advocate. NOBODY! THATS WHO!
That precious 14 year old child is now a young woman and is revealing all in regards to the physical, emotional and sexual abuse against women in the various compounds who have been “groomed/brainwashed” since childhood to submit.
Obviously the “mothers/caregivers” of the compound in Texas do not consider Warren Jeffs actions negatively … his photo adorns the wall of every room in the compound … every room that the media was invited into during the recent PR tour.
Rob … do you really think that the children should be returned to these “mothers/cargivers” … “mothers/caregivers” who handed young girls over to old men to use for their selfish/sick desires rather than protecting them at all costs.
Rob … I would die protecting my grandaughter … your grandaughter … anybody’s grandaughter … from the clutches of these pedophiles.
Janet
DENNISTROM
YES THIS IS BAZAAR.. ISNT IT
SAD IF THE CHILDREN GO BACK
TOOO SAD……..
I noticed that not one person disagreed me that Muslims are doing the exact same thing. That’s because we all know it to be true. The difference here was the Muslim community doesn’t operate in the open as the polygamists did. I could go on and on about selective prosecution here, but what’s the real use?
and Muffintop… what up with agreeing with me? that’s got to be a first!!! LOL
you had this one exactly right… we need to separate our “feelings” on these creeps from the letter of the law – which has now decided Texas did NOT meet their obligations. When people do not separate their “feelings” witch burnings happen.
My personal observations tell me that something nefarious did go down here… only a Reptilian from the Zeta Star Cluster wouldn’t recognize that.
It was always about the procedure. One which no one should be subjected to based on an innuendo.
One can only hope that Texas did not damage their case to the point that the very children they were trying to protect are now at even greater danger. That’s what happens when the law is not followed or some nut ball judge decides he will “interpret” settled law.
Lastly, a case involving children, such as this, will always elicit emotions even in the most harden amongst us. Using emotions to determine someone’s fate is never a good idea… in my opinion only…
Janet, you are missing my point… and it’s about the procedure here. “Round ‘em up and sort ‘em out later” ended with FDR and I sure as heck hope to God we never ever go back to those days. FDR is a classic example of ignoring the law and ramming it through by Executive or Presidential order. I notice GWB didn’t do that.
I think you know me well enough to know that I do NOT condone children and adults having sex or children being forced into a marriage with an adult.
Hopefully the case will still be able to proceed AGAINST those who are truly responsible here. And the witch hunt is over.
The Court has ruled, and I don’t like the majority of the ruling that the courts usually hand down, but, this is not what the law intended in the first place. The State of Texas has failed to prove to a Judge, I hope an impartial one at that, that the children are in immediate danger – therefore the children must be returned or Constitutional Attorneys are going to be all over the Prosecutor’s office lickity split.
Like it or not – it’s the law.
I *thought* “WE” posters at SM cherished the LAW even when it goes against our interests and the common good. The law is not always set up to protect the good from the bad. Sometimes it lets the bad go free and it comes back to harm us. We all know that.
If the law said that selective religious persecution was legal, it wouldn’t make it right – only legal and there are many laws that are not “right” only legal. That’s a legislative issue and not one for a judge to decide. Legislators write the laws – Judges “interpret” new laws to see if an alleged crime falls under that stature. If it does not meet the criteria the judge must either throw out the charges or ask the prosecutor to lower the bar to get something. That has not occurred here yet.
Actually going after the people that committed the underage rapes would be the best idea and the easy route to a conviction.
…. and in the meantime children are been handed of to pedophiles to defile them … handed over by “mothers/caregivers” who have been “groomed/ brainwashed” into believing that it is God’s Will.
Rob … when does a responsible caregiver snatch a child from safety WHEN THE DANGER CAN BE FORESEEN. When he/she is 100 feet from the edge of a raging river? When he/she is on the bank of a raging river? When he/she has fallen into the raging river?
Read the Appeal’s Court decisions. The justices acknowledge there is a foreseeable danger. Considering a crystal ball does not exist … logic dictates the children … for their own safety … are removed from the compound.
I am probably the most Conservative on this forum but … I contend if children cannot be legally protected from foreseeable danger that caregivers are unable or unwilling to recognize … the justice system needs to be changed.
Janet
MissKatie brought up a point, why do they all wear blue…and what does that signify…their hair is not updated or modern, probably because it is not allowed to be…the women in the video in blue looks weird…what mother after giving birth to her son or daughter would allow that child to be taken away…maybe to never see them again or do you ignore the fact that they live on the compound but you have nothing to do with them….this is really the sickest of all….Texas do something…what name is going on the birth certificates…father unknown…teenage girls forced to marry and produce a child with a predator….this entire compound needs to be investigated….women can’t leave the compound because they do not know what to do after that….the arrest of Warren should be a direct indication of what is going on there….
The weather in Texas can get really hot…the clothes and shoes they are forced to wear has to be brutal…..
Rob on May 23rd, 2008 1:25 pm
Actually going after the people that committed the underage rapes would be the best idea and the easy route to a conviction.
+++++++++++++
Rob … think about what you are saying. You are not disputing the Appeal’s court decision that it is forseeable that underage girls will be be raped if they are returned to the compound but … you contend … let’s just wait until these children are raped over and over again and … if evidence (baby) is forthcoming … then go after the perp. If there is no proof of the rape … too bad for the underage girls. Advocacy is not afford under the law.
Rob … this akin to waiting for a child to fall into the raging river when … the caregiver has the ability to prevent the tragedy by snatching him/her away from the foreseeable danger when he/she 100 feet away from the river’s edge.
Good grief.
I am done.
Janet
Janet, let me ask you, should we build a fence around every stream, creek and river? Outlaw bicycles because children have been hit by cars? or ban cars? These are areas where children are hurt, although not usually intentional… but where does it stop? I believe parents have the right to raise their kids as they see fit. I don’t have to agree, it’s not my business unless I see a kid getting beaten or abused – then it’s my business and the business of others.
I get your point… and to an extent you’re right – the laws need to be changed. But you can’t change them after the fact to suit the situation. They can be changed to prevent a future condition and to prevent the samething from happening again. No this is not an all encompassing set of laws that tailors to each and every situation.
I guess the real issue and one not discussed, should all children be removed from the care of their parents IF there could be a certain danger?
Dangers come in all shapes and sizes and who is to determine this area? Will it be a political issue or one that is straight up?
I’m not sure there is an option or a decision here that could even be handled by King Salomon himself.
I have seen a lot of parents that should not be caring for children, let alone even having children in the first place, but this is still America and parents have rights.
And NO, I do not agree with the majority of court cases that deal with kids. And in my opinion, this case went beyond the issue of kids and protection. It went into an area that borders of socialism and “people who know better”. I could do without that.
No one wants to see children harmed, but the Texas Authorities overstepped their boundaries.
Starting with the case that got Jeffs convicted was the prudent avenue and investigating correlative cases with-in the sect would have been acceptable. But simply rounding everyone up is not acceptable behavior by any State Agency because they have a “tip” or a gumption.
There is nothing to say that the authorities can not charge those who they suspect committed crimes against children from filing new charges. But I would hope that will be on an individual basis. It hardly makes sense to charge everyone with the crimes of a few, and it’s illegal.
- I’ll fight ya for the title of “Most Conservative”…LOLLOLOLOL!!!
Scared Monkeys “Sometimes we have to side step the law to enact what is right”
Lol by this logic we should all fill up our cars with gas a leave without paying to enact better gas prices.
Seriously i realize when you say this you are talking about child welfare. But do you really think it will end there. Once you let a child sidestep the rules, they will continue to try and do so. The government is in many ways like a child, once you let them sidestep one law in the name of justice they will start testing us to see just how much we will let them get away with. One day you wake up and realize every-ones rights are being violated. But how are you going to stop it, those responsible will only sidestep a few more to avoid being held responsible. ALL IN THE NAME OF JUSTICE.
On that note I agree with what the judge did, but I do hope there is still a way to portect these children from being returned to that kind of lifestyle.
Tamikosmom on May 23rd, 2008 2:37 pm
Rob … think about what you are saying. You are not disputing the Appeal’s court decision that it is forseeable that underage girls will be be raped if they are returned to the compound but … you contend … let’s just wait until these children are raped over and over again and … if evidence (baby) is forthcoming … then go after the perp. If there is no proof of the rape … too bad for the underage girls. Advocacy is not afford under the law.
+++++++++++++
Janet, you are missing my point. And No, ABSOLUTELY NOT! I don’t want anyone to get raped . . . good grief!!
I think what you want to happen here was made into a movie called Minority Report with Tom Cruise.
Preventing future crimes.
I don’t think anyone should be able to decide if a future crime has a chance of occurring.
I am concerned with any crimes that have already occurred and worry about getting those individuals charged and convicted.
good discussion, and you’re right, let’s just end it…
Janet,
Here’s what the Appeals Court actually said. Did you actually read it? It did not say what you are posting:
“The Record demonstrates the following facts, which are undisputed by the Department:
“There was no evidence that the male children, or the female children who had not reached puberty, were victims of sexual or physical abuse or in danger of being victims of sexual or physical abuse … There was no evidence that any of the female children, other than the five identified as having become pregnant between the ages of fifteen and seventeen, were victims or potential victims of sexual or physical abuse.”
http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2008/images/05/22/texas.court.pdf
Look, I think that we all agree that we need to protect children. They can’t protect themselves, so they are counting on us.
I’m suggesting that we also need to remember the Rule of Law, as an out of control government is dangerous to all of us, including children.
We have seen the very dark spector of religious hatred and persecution, even genocide. The vile Nazi’s used Jewish children for target practice because they were small and presented a better challenge. That makes me, and any decent human being, wanna puke.
We cannot go down the road of summary justice based on religious affiliation, without opening these same dark corridors in our own Nation.
We can protect our children and remain true to the Rule of Law. But if we abandone the Rule of Law, none of us will be safe.
The appeal has been filed and the kids are not going anywhere unless the couples can prove with DNA that they are the parents…I will say this, there are some, I think, some couples with one man and one wife who are raising their own children and I think those fathers did give their DNA and they may well get their kids back… I think there are some couples who are not into the cult stuff…maybe they were let in to add to the workforce or whatever…Not many of the men provided DNA samples…..hmmmm I wonder why. The legal eagles on FOX today stated they don’t see any lawsuits coming from the ranch….I still hope that the Feds go after them for welfare fraud. I used to do welfare fraud investigations and got 19 out of 20 convicted….one was null prossed but she paid full restitution. Some were out on suspended sentences for priors and went to jail straight from the courthouse….hehehehe still makes me grin after 30 years….
I don’t think that anyone here is disputing that child abuse is horrific.
Let me raise a semantic point: it is said that the activities of the Texas public welfare people, or whatever they are called, were “against the law.”
Now, suppose that the Texas Supreme Court overrules the lower court, sides with the state government, and says that the activities were indeed within the law? Where does that leave us?
Perhaps the issue is not the law itself, but interpretations of the law. These days, in my opinion, there are so many laws that just about anything can be said to be legal or illegal.
I don’t know if this has much value … but the law and morality are often at odds. Reasonable people on this forum are taking different points of view on this matter and are arguing well for what they believe was proper … or was right and wrong.
Ultimately, the top court in the state will make the decision about the legality of these actions, I guess. That they were morally right, I have no doubt at all, though once again, good arguments can probably be made on the opposite side.
The religious acts of people need to dealt with when it reflects on child abuse…religion should represent harm to anyone…children being taken away from their mothers and raised as sexual servants to the elder…breeding to make the cult even stronger…do not send the children back they are not going to be returned to their rightful mothers…besides that the mothers already gave them up…..this is completely disgusting…!!!
brie
these mothers dont even bond with these children… they become community property and thats done for a reason… the main leader male of course.. does not want them bonding.. he cant program them that way
they have to be alienated and fed all that propoganda….and yes brie the women all in blue long dresses all look alike dresses and their hair do’s are out of this century…….I just dont get how they got all those welfare checks
think of this brie
if we outsiders are the devil and they are so religious
than why are they depending on welfare that is paid by our tax dollars????????
and food stamps tooo???
they are living off of us….
but yet were the devil and evil
they are defrauding the welfare system and have gotten wealthy over it…………
they have a religious spirit!!
its religion
a personal experience with god is very special…and real
they are cults and have religious spirits
have you all seen nancy grace today?
they had a couple from the compound outside of the court with a little girl wearing a pink hat?
the woman and man acted like a robot no feeling or emotion almost like they were sent there as a married couple to look normal….
weird.. the woman kept hugging the little girl with no feeling geez
staged!!!
Misskatie…I also watched the video and saw absolutely no signs of happiness from the parents when being reunited with their child….you would think you would of seen tears of joy… but there was nothing….
And the women look pale and sick…the young lady that was interviewed by Nancy who had once lived on a compound said women are beaten and abused…when your beaten they never touch your face but everything else is covered up under their clothing….this is certainly disgraceful…and to think this is what these children have to look forward too….
Watched CNN, it said that all the children were going to be sent to other compounds so they couldn’t be taken away again….they are not treated like children, they are treated like objects…the only purpose for young females is to have children and then they are taken away…I just do not think this type of thing should be allowed to exist…
brie
the lady and her companion acted very mechanical… she had no emotion she kept leaning towards the little girl like in affection but it wasnt real…..
I did see nancy grace yesterday and looking at those women again … I got this weird feeling…. someone on the show said. ……that………they acted like the stepford wives
which I had already commented about ………
just think those older ladies were once seduced and made to marry older men themselves they were once young………. all their lives have been spent in brainwashing……………. who knows who fathered who and if there was incest…
Kitty here with a question… who was the recent female author that wrote about her life story having been involved in the sect that was connected with this story? I’d like to read about it ~ I think she’d have the most valid insight upon what really is happening in these polygamist compounds… and their secrecy… how they operate, brainwash, and have these girls for their sexual enjoyment… and procreate.
Dr. Phil’s show was very revealing discussing this case. He had 2 young men discuss their ordeal and these young men shared how they were not to even associate with the young girls… the girls/women were not allowed to laugh… etc… their clothing colors have signifigance and these young men, were grateful to have gotten out of the cult, however, they shared their sadness as they are not allowed to communicate with their families… it’s so sad…
This has been going on for a long, long time and just now coming to light ~ there’s a veil of secrecy and preditors thrive on secrecy, “don’t tell”, their threats are real and sadly, in this case, I see it for what it truly is and they are hiding under the guise of their “religion” to have sexual relations with minors… this isn’t about SEX… it’s about Power and control…monsters operate on that motive… it’s all about power and control ~ these guys are really, really good at this and as for laws… our country continues to turn a blind eye to law… (look at illegal immigration and how many years that’s been going on)…
For Janet… it’s all gone awry, true… Brie, you’re 100% correct regarding breeding for their “religion” it’s wrong and the children do need to be protected… it’s most disguisting and definately, wrong…the atrocities of the recent scandal of the Catholic church and the issues of not acknowledging the sexual abuse of children from Priests, was heinous… and hidden in secrecy… shhh… secrets.. the harm’s been done… it’s very interesting how our society seems to accept sexual abuse and the Pedofiles, Preditors, Monstors, have more rights and are more protected than our children…
Recently, in Boston, Jessica’s law was passed… 10 or so, D’A's gave their input and it is a small step forward, but there is a very long way to go regarding sexual abuse laws in this country… it’s a shame… no child, should ever suffer murder of their innocense, not to mention serve a life sentence from what a preditor/monster put upon that little beautiful human being, because of power and control… shame! It’s different now, than some 30 years ago, at least people are talking about it more and even the Church (Catholic), has had to deal with the fallout of it’s parishoners due to the lack of protecting the children… the Priests protected their own, right up to Cardinal Law, even the Pope knew… they will all have to answer for this ~ I care for their souls as well.
Back to this case ~ what these boys/young men shared on Dr. Phil was very compelling and heart wrenching to watch.. they are a product of this polyigamist environment.. they know, it was wrong and it still is going on… this woman, who wrote the book, has exposed the truth of what has gone on and what IS still going on… I still feel it is inappropriate, wrong that this sect/cult is getting away with hiding in their “religion” to impregnate young girls ~ have sex with them…these older men, aught to be ashamed of themselves… and their day will come, when they have to answer to God for what they’ve done…
However, these innocent children know no different and they are being taught lies, the women, have been taught lies and thank God, these young Men, got out and see truth ~ they are not allowed to speak to their families, as they will expose truth to them and thus change would occurr… shame, shame, shame! I felt so sad, for them not being able to speak to their Mothers… why? Because, they know the truth ~ these women are brainwashed, they drank the “koolaid” and it’s pitiful, it’s allowed in our country and it’s being hidden under religion.
Heinous, yes. Wrong, yes…
I’ll continue to pray for these little children and the women ~ bless them. I pray, they see and learn truth someday… wouldn’t it be wonderful, if they could read this woman’s life story? I wonder then, what they’d think about their lives? and what these monster men, have done and are doing to them and their children…. she aught to know, she’s lived it.
kitty
I dont see how they will ever see the light … if they are not exposed to normalcy…they have been brainwashed their entire lifes… remember these old women were once young victims of the men in the cult…
The !!! only change is that they have aged…
They know not!! the outside world as it is.. they have been taught to believe that the world outside those high compound walls is foreign to them…
High walled Gates guarded day and night. with guns !!! if that isnt a cult than what is…
they have been taught to fear whats on the other side….
for all those that have escaped at an age where they still have a chance for a normal life .. I say god bless you may you find the truth within your selves to help others in the same boat…
I think that their lives will be forever changed……. I wonder if they knew who their parents realy WERE and did they actualy bond.. or are they just missing someone that has been one of their moms amongst many..as they all look after the children…..
I think they breed only for welfare purposes as I have commented all along…..for the welfare checks
how they pull this off is beyond me…
they sure dont fear collecting the money from the the system they call evil….
I have said to brie that it was strange how they breed like cattle and the women dressing in those dresses… they are referred to as prairie dresses… and those hair do’s ..
how weird to look at them… almost like they are in a trance.. moving about the compound like they are mechanical .
Jim jones had his followers brainwashed to follow ONLY his orders…AND .. he too was having sex with all the young girls……. as a matter of fact he was the only one allowed to have sex with the girls and women..he too fathered many children in the cult!!.. when some followers started seeing the light.. he began to feel threatened… like he was loosing control.. which he was…and as a result a masacre happened… those that wanted to get away … and those officials .. that went to help
and lets not forget those that remained behind… took the koolaide…. as he incoherently mumbled about the enemy coming………………. they referred to him as father….
well father went to hell in a hand basket he took the cowards way out
I never thought that people would ever fall for such cults..after the jim jones incident… BUT yes many have followed in his place… they target the vulnerable… I would love to get my hands on a book that tells me how all this begans…
there has to be a start
and sooner or later the ending..
GOD BLESS THE CHILDREN!!!!!
watching nancy grace today..
my thoughts are again… that if these children dont return to the compound// they will sufer financialy as they depend on the wefare checks..
I seen all these little kids and more so the girls and this thought came to me that..
these little girls if not removed will someday be victimized when they hit puberty
its all about the money and control
they dont show many men coming foward…
hiding like the cowards that they are
this sickens me……….
if they have no welfare checks they will loose the property… cars and everything they have..
all bought with welfare money
they say we are the evil ones
its our tax dollars that pay that welfare
omg.. what a mess
GOD FREE THE CHILDREN
wow.. I was not aware of the welfare component to this… it deepens, does it not?
It’s so insightful what you shared, misskatie and yes, those women in the polygamy compound in Texas are “flatlined”… no life in their eyes…their beings… they are the walking dead in spirit… these monsters took away not only their innocense, they took away their minds, making them totally dependant servants to them ~ easily giving up their daughters to be impregnated at a very early age to such older monsters… (I refuse to call them men)… no Mother in her right mind, would ever do that ~ truly… It’s truly tragic… and obviously been going on for years and years…
It just sickens my friends and I that it has gone on for so long and hadn’t been stopped ~ and it’s wrong, wrong, wrong!… these Chidlren, their Mothers, need protection from these vile vermin monsters, who’ve truly used and abused these women for their own sexual procreative gain… wow… (sigh)… it’s a sad state of affairs, when living in our country, this exists… evil, does exist and when good people do nothing, it will continue ~
I feel deeply saddened for these victims ~ for the women, their children ~ it’s all they’ve known ~ these monsters, truly had a very elaborate plan and to hide it under “religion” makes me angry… and I’m talking a righteous anger here…
If they could only realize, the lie they’ve been living and taught… I’ll see if I can find out the name of that recently published book that talks about her ordeal in the polygamy cult….
(sigh)… sad, so sad…and misskatie, I agree, God Free the Children… Amen ~ and yes, it’s a mess…
just googled up polygamy and found an interesting article written in Glamour magazine…
thehopeorg.org is an organization helping those in polygamy… become educated and get out..
The women who wrote this article, was remarkable in sharing about her experience in polygamy…
she may be the same author of that book I’ve mentioned… will still look for the title..
oh, the young men, in FLDS are called the lost boys… (the 2 were shown on Dr. Phil’s show)… just fascinating how these young girls are chosen by the “prophet” only to procreate… and the B.S. lies, fed to them… it’s sickening…
this young woman who wrote this article, got out (it’s 9 pages to read).. fascinating and informative…
kitty
its all about the welfare money…………
these women I am sure in some weird way love the children… note I said the children not their children………..
why……….
because they share the children… like community property!!!!!
they are ..MORE ..concerned about the welfare money THAT FLOWS IN SO RICHLY..
look at the cars they drive and the property they own… that land wasnt earned by the mens hard work.. as I doubt they work..
those men are cowards they are hiding behind the womens prairie dresses….
I hate to say this but the women submissive and passive as they are..
HAVE BIGGER BALLS THAN THE MEN..
anyways I realy do believe kitty it’s about the money… those men didnt and dont bond with the children… they are just sperm donors for more money… the more kids you have the more money you can provide… the young girls get pregnant than they can qualify for the welfare…
used to be that the more children you had the more welfare you got not anymore..
but if more girls got pregnant than it raises the stakes… more money for the leader to hoard………THE MEN ARE USED FOR BREEDING PURPOSES…
I hope something serious get’s done.. lets see how the compound will survive without all those welfare checks…
their lucrative business of cheating the state will soon come to an end and than what will they do?????
CORRECTION!!!!
I MEANT TO SAY THAT THE MEN ARE USING THE WOMEN FOR BREEDING PURPOSES… THOSE OLD LADIES USED TO BE YOUNG LADIES ONCE… WHEN THEY HIT PUBERTY THEY WERE VICTIMIZED.. NOW THEY HELP THE MEN TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE YOUNG GIRLS..
well shared and spoken ~ these monsters are USING these women, girls, little girls for breeding purposes. PERIOD. Setting up their kingdom… (read that article it is very informative…Google it up)
Our American Dollars at work ~ once again, our system being abused, right along with innocent children ~
and it’s true, these women, were young once and they do seem to be perpitrators as well, by handing their daughters over to the old men… the “prophet” decides when, to whom and so on… these women are told such lies and that they are going to hell ~ they are completely brainwashed…and then, after they’ve bred, they are thrown aside, for a younger woman… (sisters)… 3 to a monster ~ it’s sad, that they are so mallable ~ it does not excuse them handing over their daughters, and they do help the men take advantage of the younger girls… that is true… wow, it’s so messed up!
I didn’t relize about the welfare componant…I wonder if the State of Texas will make them pay back the welfare money? Why was it that the welfare dept. didn’t suspect something fishy?) Has fraud taken place here?
Kitty
its realy sad even though these older women seem programmed .. brainwashed.. I still feel bad for them.. because they are under the mind control of this leader of theirs..(THE DEVIL).
their minds have been turned into reprobate minds.. where they can be told anything and eventualy after years and years of brainwashing they began to believe this.. they know no other life… they were probably born at the compound and remained there thru no choice of their own….
so the cycle goes on…
the leader like I said getting rich by defrauding the welfare system…
if those kids arent returned to the compound who knows what can happen.. they will probably beat the women because they werent persuasive enough…..with the system…..
those men dont love those kids they are just a form to collect welfare… the women are cold …
they attempt to express outer emotion for our eyes.ONLY. how can these women began to feel love and compassion when they havent been
exposed to kindness compassion empathy … love……..
totaly 100% cult
ALL THOSE CHILDREN REALY DONT BELONG BACK THERE…
GOD SAVE THOSE PRECIOUS CHILDREN..
as I looked at the nancy grace show yesterday… I seen all these little girls in prairie dresses and thought!!!
one day they will reach puberty and be married off to an old sweatty geezer on viagra… for the sake of breeding….
It’s truly sad, that these women, weren’t protected ~ and the cycle continues… they are victims as well and God Bless them and their children. They truly, know, no different.
I pray, they see truth someday and get out…
Truly, those men would not have a chance in hell, if those women had truth… because, no woman in her right mind, would hand over her child for an old geezer to satisfy himself with… they’d rather protect their child, than have them go down that road ~ they’d be a Lioness.
it’s so sad.
yes, it’s a cult/sect…
I still don’t understand, if this had been going on for years ~ why Texas welfare authority didn’t investigate… how many children under one last name?… it should have lit up red flags all over the place, thus been investigated and stopped…
Are the checks still forthcoming, from the welfare dept.? ~ These monsters, should be prosecuted for fraud and abusing not only the welfare system, (if that’s how they got their $),they should be prosecuted like that monster Warren, who’s serving time now for his crimes.
preditors/pedofiles/perpitrators/ know the system well and use it to their full advantage ~ as in this case.. it’s surely all about POWER AND CONTROL… breaking spirit, taking innocense away… if Mamma says it’s okay to marry an ole geezer, they would believe Mamma… and Mamma, despite maybe knowing how awful it was for her, knows no different and hands over her baby’s…she’s told if she does not, she understands the eternal consequences (lies told) or otherwise, she’s going straight to hell… and for them, that’s very, very real…
oh, how terribly sad.
I pray, they find the true love of Christ and His
Grace…
this is NOT love.
I agree, the children, do NOT belong back there…under the current circumstances…
Why not remove the monster men?…then, let the children go back to their Mothers, to their homes…
They would need professional counseling and de-brainwashing, by professionals as they are so vulnerable and could be duped again if in the wrong hands.
Then educate the children, women and empower them with learning how to have microenterprise, banking, teaching them to care for themselves…
Breaking the cycle.
God Bless them all.
You people. .. Sheesh, it has already been proven that none of the children were pregnant. Are you all a bunch of Sheeple or what? CPS totally disregarded the statements of the ‘children’ they had illegally taken, only to find out in court that lo and behold, they weren’t children at all, but fully of-age adults. Get your facts straight…
This is yet another example of the rights and liberties that the government is taking from us. WAKE UP AMERICA!
Although I do not believe in Plural marriage, I also must look at the fact of this case. An unidentified person called CPS to report the abuse, only to find out that it was a 33 y/o black woman from Colorado with no knowledge of anything inside of the compound. The warrants from CPS to grab the children were based on speculation, and lies. The people that they state were the guilty parties had not been on that compound in over 15 years.,…
What Warren Jeff’s did has nothing to do with what was going on with that Compound… That is like saying, that a member of you gated home-owners association is dealing dope, so YOU must be guilty of that as well…
The Government LOVES uninformed masses..