Justice for Aruban/Antillean homo-boat, but Not Natalee Holloway … JUSTICE FOR NATALEE


More priorities out of Aruba and the Antilles.

Once again we are presented with the priorities that take place in Aruba and the Netherlands Antilles. Aruban/Antillean “homo-boat”, yes … Justice for Natalee, no! What a shining example that you continually set for future tourism.

Bon Bini Events, organizer of Aruban parties, assumes the organization around the Aruban/Antillean gay boat.  The Gay Pride in Amsterdam takes place from July 28 till August 3 inclusive.  The parade of boats takes place on August 2.

The presence of a gay Aruban/Antillean boat shows that all things are possible if they are pushed to go so. Then why is it more important for this Aruban/Antillean “homo-boat” than it is for Justice for Natalee?

Antillean boat on Gay Pride (Amigoe: 5/2/2008)

WILLEMSTAD/AMSTERDAM – An Aruban/Antillean homo-boat is for the first time going to officially take part in the parade of boats during the annual Gay Pride in Amsterdam.  

“It is time to show our face.  With this boat we give openness and evidence to homosexuality within our own culture”, said Charlene Oduber, chair of Epoca Nobo Foundation to the Gay Krant (paper).

“Homo-emancipation within the Aruban and Antillean community can only be done by us.  Dutch organizations often talk on behalf of Aruban and Antilleans, and it is well-meant.  It therefore looks as if homosexuality is something typical Dutch.  And it is this that had a disturbing effect on the social acceptance of Aruban and Antillean homosexuals within our own community.”

Bon Bini Events, organizer of Aruban parties, assumes the organization around the Aruban/Antillean gay boat.  The Gay Pride in Amsterdam takes place from July 28 till August 3 inclusive.  The parade of boats takes place on August 2.

If you liked this post, you may also like these:

  • Washington, DC Travel Show, ACTS … June 21-24 … Help Provide Justice for Natalee Holloway
  • As Public Employees Boycott & Protest in Aruba … Let’s Remember What’s Really Important … Justice for Natalee Holloway
  • Natalee Holloway; Not on FBI Missing Person’s List?
  • Updates from the Boston Travel Show … “Justice for Natalee” Part 2
  • Confirmed … Jawbone Found in Aruba Does Not Belongs to Natalee Holloway

  • Comments

    169 Responses to “Justice for Aruban/Antillean homo-boat, but Not Natalee Holloway … JUSTICE FOR NATALEE”

    1. jimbo on May 2nd, 2008 6:34 am

      Aruba is movingon!!!

    2. buster on May 2nd, 2008 7:02 am

      Is any one here suprised ???

    3. jasper on May 2nd, 2008 7:49 am

      Who earned how much on the Natalee Holloway dissapearance.


    4. Mohican on May 2nd, 2008 7:55 am

      They’ll have a Homo-Boat for the purposes of Homo-Emancipation. I bet Homo-Simian will be the boat queen and they’ll all have Homo-Fun.

      The best homo-phrases of the article are “Dutch organizations often talk on behalf of Aruban and Antilleans, and it is well-meant. It therefore looks as if homosexuality is something typical Dutch.”

      The concluding comment, “It therefore looks as if homosexuality is omething typical Dutch” is most definitely neither a homo nor gay proposition. It is plain dumb.

    5. jasper on May 2nd, 2008 8:18 am

      Dear Monkey readers in America :

      I just looked at news.google.nl and punched “Joran van der Sloot”, less than 30 hits, most related to the news Joran is in Thailand, from early April.

      Then I checked in Germany news.google.de : no hits at all.

      England : news.google.co.uk : No hits on news at all.

      So, In Europe, I can honestly say, the news since the “Peter R. De Vries show” is fading back again to zero.

      Now, I cannot check news.google.com in Europe, since I always get redirected to a european coutnerpart. Can somebody please punch in “joran van der sloot” on news.google.com (in America, to see how many hits pop up).

      Thanks, just out of curiosity.

    6. Richard on May 2nd, 2008 8:45 am

      Yet another Oduber is speaking up. Any ties to the big cheese?

      I wonder if this boat will be the Tattoo. Anyway, it would be appropriate, I suppose, if this boat were to be sunk by the breaking of a Dutch dike.

      No country like the Netherlands for making dikes…. The national hero is that anonymous kid who, to save his family, stood all night with a finger in the dike ….

      Well, this is getting bad! Fit for the Dutch, though.

    7. brie. on May 2nd, 2008 8:47 am

      #3…..thank you but we don’t read Dutch….could you please translate into English…seems like an interesting article…

    8. always 1 on May 2nd, 2008 9:21 am

      red, is Klassend better today?

    9. Miss-Underestimated on May 2nd, 2008 10:02 am

      Okay what is a Krant? Same a a Krank?
      Is Rosie there?

    10. misskatie on May 2nd, 2008 11:43 am

      gay trolls!!!


    11. FL on May 2nd, 2008 1:03 pm

      #9 Miss-Underestimated:
      Gay Krant = Gay Newspaper
      Website: http://www.gaykrant.nl/

      Information about the Amsterdam Gay Pride Parade: http://www.iamsterdam.com/visiting_exploring/special_interest/gay_lesbian_bisexual/amsterdam_pride

    12. Maggie on May 2nd, 2008 1:43 pm

      Yep, they have to show their support.with their boat. Where were they when the Persistance needed money and support looking for Natalee?

      It is time to show our face. With this boat we give openness and evidence to homosexuality within our own culture”, said Charlene Oduber, chair of Epoca Nobo Foundation to the Gay Krant (paper

      3 years soon and no Natalee and no justice since May 2005, but it’s time to show their face and give openess for a boat as a priority.

    13. bob on May 2nd, 2008 2:54 pm

      If Natalee was killed for being a lesbian, I gotta believe her killers would be behind bars now!!

    14. Yawn on May 2nd, 2008 4:06 pm

      you clever monkkkeys never run out of ridiculous angles to link to Holloway’s disappearance.

      I would imagine that there are few ( outside of your pathetic clique of xenophobes and dimwits ) that would possibly equate a boat in a Gay-Pride flotela….with Natalee Holloway.

      You’re a ridiculous group blinded by silly obsessions.

    15. misskatie on May 2nd, 2008 6:27 pm

      and she said >>>>>>>>>

      Yawn on May 2nd, 2008 4:06 pm
      you clever monkkkeys never I am so proud of you…even though we in aruba are rediculous we have found so many different angles because we as you already kno….are linked to Holloway’s disappearance.

      I would imagine that there are few ( outside of we in aruba are a pathetic clique of arawaks ) yeah you can equate a boat in a Gay-Pride flotela….with Natalee Holloway.

      we are a ridiculous group blinded by silly perverted….obsessions. like money laundering .. and etc etc but you already know that ….

    16. misskatie on May 2nd, 2008 6:30 pm


    17. Patti on May 2nd, 2008 6:40 pm

      So Aruba is proud of their gay heritage, just as they are of their Arawak heritage. I should be astonished… but I’m not. It’s not a far cry from completely devouring someone to the perverse, filthy, unhealthy practices of those that practice sodomy.

      We are dealing with a bunch of REAL zenophobes and dimwits… and I do declare, they are pathetic.

      The Dutch welcomes the sick, perverse and demented while Aruba follows suit. The tree doesn’t fall far from the tree. Sure make one wonder how much the Dutch REALLY know about the religious practices of the Arawak… now THAT’s, truly, sick!

      But, in Aruba, they will do anything for a laugh,

      a reason to light the lights

      and beat the drums…

      Festival for All is their Motto.

      They don’t take ANYTHING serious…

      But, they will!


      Party hardy, Aruba;

      for, soon, the end will come.

      Ofcourse, like a bunch of idiots,

      you may wonder what you did

      to get the gods angry…

      With no regard to the Only True God!



    18. Patti on May 2nd, 2008 6:45 pm



      Good Nite!



      Stay OUT of Aruba…

      Protect yourselves and your families.



    19. michelle on May 2nd, 2008 6:56 pm

      YAWN your sn suits to a T.

    20. always 1 on May 2nd, 2008 8:56 pm

      Patii, i did some research on the Arawok Indians- see notes to you on next page….

    21. Herman on May 2nd, 2008 9:01 pm

      Na alle beledigingen van ruim een dag geleden voelde ik mij achteraf enigszins aangesproken om jelui op mijn eigen manier duidelijk te maken dat ik vanaf het begin een openlijk iemand ben geweest, die op zekere dag diep betrokken raakte bij de gebeurtenissen rondom Natalee… en al doende terechtkwam bij deze gesloten kring.
      Door allerlei ontwikkelingen ontdekte ik, dat er in elk geval meerdere mensen bleken te zijn die -net zoals ik- geloven dat deze zeer besproken jongedame uit Mountain Brooks commerciëel “dood” is verklaard… en dit alles zonder enerlei bewijs: deze “wij” geloven hier dus in het geheel niet in, doch vertrouwen op onsverkregen inzicht en dat dikwijls door de bijzondere talenten.
      Ik speel op you tube, voorlopig nog voor Natalee, in de hoop dat zij binnenkort weer wat van zich laat horen. Bedankt voor je vriendelijke woorden Katie, jij herkende mij het best zou ik zo denken. En voor Patty het volgende: jouw complimenten sluiten goed aan na wat beroemdheden als The Imperials, Wim Overgaauw of bijvoorbeeld Radbout Oomes en vele anderen openlijk zeiden:
      “Herman… ji jspeelt wonderlijk… je bent een genie!”
      Mijn vertrouwen in God heeft mij nooit doen beschamen… in goede en slechte tijden… gesproken over het niveau wat julie hanteren!
      Al te goed is buurmans gek en spreken is zilver, zwijgen is goud.
      Mijn werken kunnen vanzelf altijd blijven volgen op het fortuinlijke You Tube,
      Met de meeste hoogachting,


      Babelfish Translation:

      After all insults of largely a day suffered felt I afterwards addressed slightly jelui in my own manner clear make that I from the beginning openly a someone has been, who involved on certain day deeply touched at the events around Natalee… and already doing arrived at these ring closed. By all kinds of developments discovered I that there anyway several people proved be who – just like I – believe that this very discussed young lady has been explained by Mountain Brooks commerciëel “”… and all this without enerlei proof: these “we” do not believe therefore in whole in, yet trust our-obtained insight and that often by particular brio. I provisionally still play on you tube, for Natalee, in the hope that they soon what of itself lets hear. Thank for your pleasant words Katie, you recognised best I would think me this way. And for Patty the following: your compliments connect good after what beroemdheden such as The Imperials, said Wim Overgaauw or others openly for example rad bolt Oomes and a lot of: Herman… ji jspeelt marvellous… you are a genie! My faith in god has me never does shame… spoken in good and bad times… concerning the level what uses julie! Already too well buurmans are crazily and speak zilver is, be silent gold is. My work can continue follow automatically always on the lucky You tube, with most of the hoogachting,

    22. bob on May 3rd, 2008 12:25 am

      Yawn, We’re blinded by silly obsessions like Truth and Justice!

    23. ed on May 3rd, 2008 9:17 am

      SM: Secular? Its a matter of priorities, not that everything has to do with NH.

      BTW, we are not secular.

    24. Don on May 3rd, 2008 9:56 am

      Yes, you can tie anything to Nathalee’s disappearance here. Contradiction doesn’t matter. For your information, despite of what you wish to believe, traditional Arubans are mostly very consverative (catholic). Only a few years ago minister Croes threatened to throw a legally married lesbian couple of the island. Check here : http://www.globalgayz.com/aruba-news.html
      But keep on thinking what you think. You seem happy with not looking further than your own prairie.

    25. always 1 on May 3rd, 2008 11:54 am

      MONKEYS, in 1492, the Arawak Indians used Cohaba (also known as Vilcaor and Yoba) in the ceromonial rites….the drug has all the properties to cause the symtoms Natalee experienced the night of her death, but she may not have been dead…..the bigger picture, could it be posssible Joran and friends gave the drug to Natalee and the cover up was because the tree still exists on Aruba and it is processed and sold thus the big cover up….If this has already been said by other monkeys, please forgive….

    26. Sasha on May 3rd, 2008 11:58 am

      Don, you are talking Sh*t again.


      This island is FULL of BI-SEXUALS. I feel like everyone is bored and have nothing to do with their time, so they turn into sex. And since the oppoiste sex is not exciting enough for them, so many people are bi-sexuals now. Just something new and exciting for them. It’s just insane. I have never seen a place like this that everything revolves around drugs, alcohol and sex.

    27. esther on May 3rd, 2008 12:52 pm

      Sasha sasha toch…
      Still dont understand what you’re still doing in Aruba…

      Shame on you…


    28. esther on May 3rd, 2008 1:01 pm

      I think you are on cohaba.. ;)

    29. Don on May 3rd, 2008 1:13 pm

      Sahsa, I must be on a different island then. In most Aruban families both parents work hard(very often 2 jobs) because everyday life is very very expensive. Who is bored here ? You make a caricature out of Aruba and Arubans. The truth is in the eye of the beholder. Is see a different truth here. You seem to have a very negative attitude in general and will probably even see danger in Disneyworld. btw If you hate it so much on Aruba, what are you doing here on the island ?

    30. Don on May 3rd, 2008 1:15 pm

      Hi Esther. Good to see you again here in the midst of the Aruba bashers. Whats up ?

    31. misskatie on May 3rd, 2008 1:52 pm


      You are a great person and a good source of information us the monkeys..
      you see aruba for what it is(EVIL) and your insight is most valuable to us .. you are !!!our eyes on that crappy island



      .. THE TROLLS


      justice for natalee!!!

    32. misskatie on May 3rd, 2008 1:55 pm

      esther on May 3rd, 2008 12:52 pm
      Sasha sasha you good lady you..
      I certainly do understand what you’re still doing in Aruba…

      Shame on us trolls…


    33. misskatie on May 3rd, 2008 1:59 pm

      Don on May 3rd, 2008 1:15 pm
      Hi Esther. Good to see you again here by the way!!! why why WHY WAHHHHHH!!!! are you an american basher. what up with dat!!!

    34. misskatie on May 3rd, 2008 2:05 pm

      Don on May 3rd, 2008 1:13 pm
      Sahsa, I must be on a different island then. In most Aruban families both parents work hard(very often 2 jobs) because everyday life is very very expensive. Who is bored here ? me of course cuz aruba sucks!! You make me happy …nothing good comes out of Aruba and Arubans suck . The truth is in the eye of the beholder. Is see a different truth here. aruba deserves what it gets.. You seem to have a very positive attitude in general and will probably even see danger for all americand with due right in . Aruba is so hated… but they did it to theirselves , what are you doing is great… alerting americans to stay away good job!!

    35. esther on May 3rd, 2008 2:20 pm

      MissKatie was i talking to you?
      Hi Don,are we still on for a balashi beer next week :)

      I hope soon we’ll know the whole truth about what happend to Natalee..

    36. esther on May 3rd, 2008 2:22 pm

      Uh katie,you hate aruba, please dont speak for every american…
      Thank you…

    37. always 1 on May 3rd, 2008 2:34 pm

      Esther, since i dont know you, do you know about the effects of Cohaba, or are you just throwing that out there…..go to Bouncing Bear Botanicals to see the cost of the drug…

    38. always 1 on May 3rd, 2008 2:51 pm

      Ester, also, I have done a lot of research on Natlee Holloway and Aruba, if you are going to bash my ideas, then at least tell me why you think I am wrong or tell me where I can read your notes on the case….

    39. Sasha on May 3rd, 2008 3:05 pm

      Don and Esther,
      I never denied that some Arubans work hard to be able to make a livng. I still have no idea who you two are and if you even get out at all to see things for yourselves…You live in a fantasy world and it’s obvious that you dont pay attention to your surroundings. I can tell you are not Aruban. You either vacation on the island and you just dont know what is going on around you, or you live on the island and have a vested interest on the island and you are afraid the negativity will hurt your future there. Either way, as I have been telling you both, pay more attention to what is going on around you and to the local news. And lets talk again in a few weeks.

      I am just saying everything that I see. The fact that they are bi-sexuals and basing everything around sex, drugs and alcohol has nothing to do with if they are working hard or not.

      And you are right, the OLD Arubans were very conservative and religious. However, that was the old generation. Most of them have passed away or are just too old. The current generation that we see and deal with, are the dishonest and corrupt and just abusive. They use and abuse their own system, their own people and ESPECIALLY THE TOURIST. They steal and lie and there is no denying in that.

    40. Sasha on May 3rd, 2008 3:09 pm

      I still think Don is Julia Renfro. I know most Americans that live on the island, and trust me, they all agree with everything we have been saying. Julia Renfro is the only one that is so in denial.

      And Esther is just another American girl that comes here for fun and to go wild….

    41. always 1 on May 3rd, 2008 4:06 pm

      and Esther, this site doesnt belong to me but if it did I would banish you for speaking that way to MissKatie….DONT DO IT AGAIN1111111111111

    42. esther on May 3rd, 2008 4:29 pm

      I dont see the link between drugs that Arawaks used and these trees still growing on the island and that maybe it was given to Natalee the night she dissapeared?!? What is it with you guys and the Arawak thing? Do you know that they lived in Florida as well!!

    43. esther on May 3rd, 2008 4:35 pm

      Are you starting to scream at me as Katie does always :)

    44. Sasha on May 3rd, 2008 4:38 pm

      Esther is only making a fool of herself. She cant even speak intelligently to defend her point of view.

      I actually like having her on the site. Very entertaining to see how some people can be so blind and naive. But also sad at the same time.

      Again, she probably goes to Aruba to have fun and to party wild. And just like many other American girls, she thinks all those Arubans (especially the men) are her friends and that they love her. That’s where she is wrong. They are just using her. Every day I see so many of these girls crying of how they were used by Aruban men (sexually and financially) and I also hear how Aruban men talk about our American girls that come here. They have no respect for them and just make fun of how naive these girls are…So sad. So many Arubans have told me they don’t like these girls, THEY LOVE THEIR WALLETS.

    45. Richard on May 3rd, 2008 5:01 pm

      People, it’s clear that the trolls come here only to (try to) annoy us. Why give them the satisfaction of replying?

    46. benh on May 3rd, 2008 5:29 pm

      God bless natalee and her family.

    47. benh on May 3rd, 2008 5:55 pm

      go to patricks web page read it, if he does not work for the goverment he should hes full of it.

    48. misskatie on May 3rd, 2008 6:44 pm

      there are good people in aruba…
      I cant say much for those stalking scared monekeys
      troll patrol

    49. misskatie on May 3rd, 2008 6:45 pm

      good advise richard

    50. misskatie on May 3rd, 2008 6:48 pm

      thanks so much your a true friend
      troll patrol sent by arubas scum

    51. misskatie on May 3rd, 2008 6:50 pm

      we need to find a 12 step program for those programmed by their govt

    52. always 1 on May 3rd, 2008 6:52 pm

      what i meant was, the tree grows in tropical settings, it apparently used to grow there…hallucinogenic drugs are still made from plants (see The Vaults of Erowid) isnt it possible it could still grow on Aruba and is being processed there????

    53. always 1 on May 3rd, 2008 7:07 pm

      Im glad youre back Klassend!

    54. Tracy on May 3rd, 2008 10:06 pm


      Monkeys our message should be loud and clear.How can they have a festival there when the boycott is in full swing?Also this coincides with the 3 year anniversary.Sick!!!!BOYCOTT ARUBA J4N!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    55. molly in houston on May 3rd, 2008 10:59 pm

      45: Richard. I agree. I don’t understand why people talk so much to trolls. It’s just not worth the effort and time.

      boycott aruba
      mollyin houston

    56. kayjay on May 3rd, 2008 11:02 pm

      Very nice tribute by LOUSW on the AlCom. Natalee Holloway Forum..worth reading.

      P.S. Don’t forget to put those “Boycott Aruba – Justice for Natalee” stickers on outgoing mail..if everyone does this it will spread the word about the boycott and keep her in more people’s thoughts. (Current Labels printed some up for me and they are very nice).

    57. Don on May 4th, 2008 2:36 am

      Tracy, do you get it ? There is no boycot other than the one in your minds here. You are just making fools of yourselves here and show the dark side of humankind. Those that burn witches. They will fantasize anything to put the blame on someone. In this case Arubans and Aruba. Nuff said.
      SM: The boycott is an individual’s choice. It is not a boycott in the normal definition.

      The fact that you would equate wanting a family of a missing person to get answers and justice to “dark side of humankind” shows what is in your heart. How sad that you walk around every day with such hate and malice for those that care about others. I guess if you liked yourself, maybe you could learn to like others.

      Let’s see … a girl went missing who was last seen with three boys … they lied from the outset … some have even made confessions. You think that there is no one to blame for the disappearance of a person? I guess unless it affected you personally, you care of nothing. Could you be any more selfish.

      Wanting answers and demanding justice is hardly a bad thing.

    58. Don on May 4th, 2008 2:38 am

      Sasha, I am not Julia Renfro. I am Dick Miller, hahahaha. This is how it works here. No arguments, hey, lets doubt his identity ! Sasha I am stating here your are not even on Aruba. If you were you could never claim you know most Americans on the island. That’s a load of rubbish.

    59. A New Girl on May 4th, 2008 3:19 am

      @ #15- Yawn….you said…

      “You clever monkkkeys never run out of ridiculous You’re a ridiculous group blinded by silly obsessions”

      Wanted to compliment YOU on your very fitting screen name. The only thing that really made me YAWN was your BOOOOORRRRRRRRINNNG post.

      And, as far as silly obsessions go—A missing, raped & murdered young American girl is not an “obession”. Are we Monkeys obsessed perhaps with the criminal case and GROSS injustice suffered at the hands of “ONE CRAPPY ISLAND” and the corruption which took place regarding this case?? ABSOLUTELY, we are.

      If you can read the majority of our posts- we protest and send money to those who are trying to locate her remains for one SIMPLE reason. As her parents search for the same every breathing, waking moment of their lives….we are searching for the same.


      Tell me, Yawn—what if that happened to YOUR daughter? What would you do? Oh, I get it- NOTHING because you’d still be YAWNING and telling those who care we are just “ridiculously obsessed”. Give me a break!


    60. A New Girl on May 4th, 2008 3:35 am

      Sasha- I agree with you- I don’t mind having Ester and Don here…it’s rather amusing.

      Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Thank you again Sasha, for “Keeping it Real”…all Ester (a “troll” or otherwise) ever seems to add to her post is how she has to go out drinking. lol Maybe she’s an alcoholic? Might be time to check out a local AA Meeting on ONE CRAPPY ISLAND….., “Hi, My Name is Ester and I’m an Alcoholic. Oh, yeah- and I also want to go to the beach and do the merengue instead of paying attention to where I live.”




      We want JUSTICE for Beth and Dave Holloway so that they may have full closure for a daughter gone forever.

      SCARED MONKEYS want:


      Ester, you need to HOP ON THE CLUE BUS BEFORE IT RUNS YOUR ASS OVER, Dear.


    61. Vicki on May 4th, 2008 5:27 am

      CAn someone say WTF??? These idiots have nothing else to do but come out of the closet??? Well why not, they have disclsed tht they have no EMPATHY, SYMPATHY or any EMOTION at all for a suffering family…Thats what they need to do..CONCENTRATE on a GAY BOAT…WILL URINE BE THE QUEEN OF THE BOAT??? with PAPASWEAT LICKING HIM???? tHE whole Island is going to HELL in a hand bag…WOW…A GAY BOAT…what next??? THIS PLACE IS A JOKE…


    62. Vicki on May 4th, 2008 5:33 am

      #54- NOT to WORRY, these ppl are all HAS BEENS. Havent had but one semi hit in their life time..SinBAd is a washed up has been…OLD MAN…wasnt funny in his prime…HAHAHAHAHAHAH WHAT A JOKE….

    63. Don on May 4th, 2008 11:56 am

      Vicki, you are so well informed and eloquent. No wonder this boycot is a huge success ! (not)
      SM: Add something to to conversation or take a hike. The definition of pathetic hate is taking the time to make negative posts about people trying to do some good.

      Go take on the day and do some thing productive with your life rather than sitting behind your key board spewing hate.

      Have a nice day :)

    64. Maggie on May 4th, 2008 1:14 pm

      Don on May 4th, 2008 2:36 am
      You are just making fools of yourselves here and show the dark side of humankind. Those that burn witches. They will fantasize anything to put the blame on someone.

      Don, I think you just described youselves,the cops, govt officials, the suspects and their families, to a T, handling the case of tourist, Natalee Holloway, and her death in Aruba May 2005.

      Esther go have a beer with Don at Senor Frogs, but as Dennis Jacobs told Dave Holloway, watch out they may try to put something in it and drug you both. You could end up wanting to “sit on a beach at 3am alone to look at stars”.

      Maybe you can find out and let us know why Joran, Paulus and the casinos have never been held accountable for letting a 17 year old minor in repeatedly to gamble, which put Joran in contact with the Mountain Brooks class and why he had a VIP pass to Carlos n Charlies, which again put him in contact with them? Paulus worked 15 years in govt and as a lawyer,, if anyone should know the laws, it would be him.

    65. Miss Katie on May 4th, 2008 2:09 pm

      NEW GIRL
      needed for s.m room



      SM: Did some one say Troll Patrol?

      Sorry, should have said compliments of the Management,
      R ;)

    66. Miss Katie on May 4th, 2008 2:14 pm

      lets just say if!!!


      than why are these trolls wasteing so much time and energy POSTING HERE IN DEFENSE OF THE …WITCH DOCTORS ISALND…


      POINT MADE!!!!!

    67. Miss Katie on May 4th, 2008 2:17 pm


      HIGH 5′
      guess so huh

    68. Miss Katie on May 4th, 2008 2:18 pm



    69. Miss Katie on May 4th, 2008 2:21 pm


      You still sleeping?

    70. always 1 on May 4th, 2008 2:58 pm

      Im awake, MissKatie, cant believe Don is making fun of us…get the shotgun!!!!!

    71. Scared Monkeys on May 4th, 2008 3:00 pm


      Should have said … compliments of SM Management.

      ;) RED

    72. esther on May 4th, 2008 3:39 pm

      Sasha am an Arubian living in the Netherlands :)
      Proud to be from Aruba….

      Still hope for closure for the natalee holloway case….and for her family ofcourse…

    73. Esther on May 4th, 2008 3:55 pm

      Still want to meet me at moomba sasha?
      Am tall,curly hair and a bastard child as you americans call us…

    74. Don on May 4th, 2008 4:03 pm

      SM.I think this is typical for the attitude here. I have been insulted in comments here for the last couple of days, no problem, I don’t care. I make one personal remake about 2 complete airheaded postings by Vicki and I am spewing hate ??? And what does Vicki do ? Spread love ?? Oh right, hating Aruba and Arubans is a good cause. It’s good that I understand that now. It’s cleared things up. Ignorance is strength. Big brother is watching you.
      SM: Its too bad Aruba turned its head on responsibility in this case. And yes I mean the people too.

      I can speak to this issue having gone to Aruba since the 70′s. Trust me, it never was this way in the past.

      And as for the hate that you claim this site has … I did not leave Aruba … Aruba left me.

    75. Miss Katie on May 4th, 2008 4:48 pm

      lol red
      I think thats what I was trying to say
      my tongue got tied

    76. Miss Katie on May 4th, 2008 4:51 pm

      lol always1
      since you got the shotgun
      lets do a shotgun wedding
      since ester is constantly tring to get don to go out for beer!!

      you got the shotgun!!!

      than maybe they’ll be to pre-occupied with eachother AND WILL EVERYONCE WILL GET peace!!!

    77. Miss Katie on May 4th, 2008 4:53 pm

      yadda yaddda yadda
      so what if their both married..
      people do it all the time there dont they

    78. Patti on May 4th, 2008 6:38 pm

      They know that we know that they know we know.

      They’re bound to react.


      Catholic… my ass!

      Just because you beg from the church

      doesn’t make you a catholic,

      you worthless piece of shit.

      Your people are like pigeons

      resting on the roof tops,

      waiting for someone to shit on.



      Don lives in Aruba

      and Ester lives in NL

      (She’s an air head)


      (He’s a wife beater)


      All in the family!


      Boycott Aruba!


      The Netherlands!

    79. misskatie on May 4th, 2008 6:47 pm

      I know red huh..

    80. misskatie on May 4th, 2008 6:47 pm

      where is everyone?

    81. Patti on May 4th, 2008 6:48 pm

      Don sounds more like Patrick…

      With that whining…

      Witch hunt bull shit.

      What’s wrong, Patrick?

      Seeing ghosts again?

      He sounds SOOOOOOOOO

      Desperately, Hollywood!


    82. Patti on May 4th, 2008 6:55 pm

      Waaa Waaaa Waaaa

      Burning Witches at the Stake?


      Who’s Burining Witches at the Stake?

      Not Us….




      But, it’s SOOOOO Embarrassing~~~!?

    83. misskatie on May 4th, 2008 7:13 pm

      patrick needs to be throwed into the stew pot with a little
      dompig feet
      sloot sweat
      add some croe poop

    84. misskatie on May 4th, 2008 7:14 pm


    85. misskatie on May 4th, 2008 7:20 pm


    86. Bob on May 4th, 2008 7:44 pm

      About 2 weeks ago, there was an update posted on the Forensic thought prints website that was a very interesting perspective. Hopefully, Monkeys here might like to read a portion:

      “April 14, 2008

      Aspiration Seizure: The convulsion leading to Natalee’s death

      Joran told Patrick van der Eem that Natalee suffered a seizure and died. So now seizures are discussed ad infinitum until the media’s blue in the face, occasionally speculating that it may have been a cardiac event causing a sudden death. Besides that simple speculation, the media and investigators remain frustratingly fixated on the idea of a literal “seizure.”

      But what if Joran only gives us part of the truth and that part of the truth which is most favorable to him? That’s what criminals typically do when they’re starting to confess. As much as they can, they try to make themselves look good. What if Joran colors the truth about the type of crisis which occurred with Natalee so that he looks good, would we be surprised? Not on your life! What if Joran, however, in describing a seizure, actually hinted at a more ominous event, an event which made him much more culpable?
      Let’s look at a couple possibilities.

      1—Let’s say he offered her cocaine which she took voluntarily. The stimulant effects of that drug could possibly have induced a cardiac seizure in an inexperienced user (remember Len Bias).
      2—Or say he surreptitiously drugged her which led to her sudden death.

      What might that drug be? GHB– or Ecstasy? If he had spiked one of her drinks, Ecstasy would be most likely because of its aphrodisiac nature. GHB routinely causes blackouts and as well Ecstasy fit particularly with Joran’s previous m.o. (And once again, in a carefully planned group attack the last thing the three suspects wanted was an unconscious Natalee on their hands.)
      Aspiration Most Likely Possibility
      What if he did something else which led to some type of medical crisis and involved jerking type bodily movements, then sudden death? What if Joran was trying to tell us that “seizures, jerking and shaking” really meant “sudden bodily movements” and not a true seizure? Actual seizures involve a neurological event in which the brain misfires sending the body into spasms and convulsions. An event simply involving sudden bodily movements would explain much more reasonably why he/they wanted to dispose of the body.

      The likely scenario is even worse. On top of drugging her, Joran had also done something else which contributed to a seizure or a total body spasm of some type—both leading to her death. The possibilities are not many at this point: a drug, desperate bodily movements, and sudden death followed by CPR.

      And what does CPR tell you by itself? She can’t breathe, she stopped breathing, and he hopes if he can get air into her that she will be OK. If he could get her to breathe, he thinks he could get her heart going again because by this time it had likely stopped beating.

      Now the trail narrows and we arrive at the likelihood of a sudden death associated with desperate bodily movements not the result of a true seizure. This leaves only one possibility—death by aspiration.

      Natalee was vomiting, choking, swallowing, trying desperately to get her breath, sitting up, leaning over at first while turning red then quickly turning blue. The crisis would have drawn a reflexive response from Joran, pounding on her back, shaking her by the shoulders followed by an overt mouth-to-mouth chest pumping. This desperate CPR effort failed when Joran couldn’t get air into her lungs because, as he told us, she was VERY DRUNK, meaning her lungs were filled with fluid.

      So what clues do we have of such an event? By his own admission, Joran shook her and tried CPR. It was sudden, he told van der Eem, and the fact that she was very drunk is a crucial clue. Joran’s (and Deepak’s) description suggest Natalee’s intoxication involved both vomiting and passing out. Drunk and drugged suggests two substances contributed to her vomiting—alcohol and Ecstasy.

      This worst-case scenario is staring the media and investigators in their faces, but somehow they’re unable to see it.

      Let’s go back to what happened after last call at Carlos’n Charlie’s. Natalee was casually conversant in Deepak’s car. Joran has pointed out that she expressed her discomfort with the porn video the Kalpoes were playing on the Honda’s TV system. Other conversation regarding her mother, Aruban tourist sites and the Kalpoes’ racial identity also took place. If the boys had slipped her some GHB, Natalee would have been unconscious by the time they arrived at Fisherman’s Huts and the beach.

      If Joran and the Kalpoes simply planned to rape a girl, the secluded beach would seem to be ideal place for such activity, but analysis of Deepak’s email clearly shows that the gang rape took place in Deepak’s Honda.

      Aspiration is a far more likely occurrence under the conditions of a group assault than a rare seizure due to drugs or pre-existing medical condition. Consider this fact: choking is by far the most common cause of death during rapes.

      More clues pointing to aspiration:

      Joran describes a sudden death on Natalee’s part, just as Deepak did. Joran reports that she went into convulsions and then lapsed into unconsciousness and death. He denied that she was “foaming at the mouth” but his denials were excessive.

      In short, by mentioning the foaming repeatedly—even though he denies it happened—Joran is hinting that Natalee threw up, went into convulsions and started jerking because she couldn’t get her breath which led to her sudden death from aspiration, Deepak’s identical scenario. (In Deepak’s version, Natalee died suddenly of asphyxia during a three-way sexual attack while she was bound around the neck in the backseat of his Honda at a secluded location not far from the beach.)

      “No, no foaming at the mouth, not that I saw,” Joran tells van der Eem in three rapid-fire denials—“No, no foaming at the mouth (adds details), not that I saw.” with his extensive use of denial including the details “no foaming at mouth” and a reference to his vision, “not that I saw,” he strongly suggests that Natalee was foaming at the mouth, meaning vomiting. Remember criminal suspects characteristically use denial to tell us the truth. That’s exactly what Deepak was doing when he insisted over and over in his email “I would NEVER HURT anyone.” Another telling denial was Deepak’s email assertion that, “ Natalee wasn’t nude and nothing sexually went on in car against her will.”

      If Joran had simply said, “No” or “No foaming,” we would be more inclined to take him literally. Beyond that, when he elaborates, he is, as Shakespeare put it, “protesting too much.”
      Joran even matches Deepak’s insistence that Natalee was “very drunk,” meaning filled with drink/liquid and unconscious, again suggesting an aspiration death. (Simply think what “very drunk” implies: staggering drunk, out of control, pass out drunk, etc.) And his comment, “I was shaking the bitch,” vividly matches Deepak’s profile which revealed that Joran was the one choking her (probably with a noose around her neck) for the purposes of controlling the rape victim, Natalee. In saying her shook her, Joran is also referring to his failed CPR efforts.

      Investigators must open their minds

      It’s a shame that initial clues from Joran and Deepak regarding vomiting have totally gone by the wayside. For example, Charles Croes, who discussed the case with Joran one day after Natalee disappeared, reported Deepak’s excessive concern that Natalee might vomit in his Honda.
      Police investigators and investigative journalists have failed to think symbolically. They have foolishly taken everything literally and believe everything the suspect’s say. They fail to realize that, of course, the truth will be hidden, that suspects will lie and mislead. The worse the truth makes the suspect look, the more he will conceal it. But he will inadvertently tell the truth between the lines, in vivid symbolic images.

      The truth is there, but investigators must know how to look for it.

      Police and the media both run in packs. There is a kind of herd mentality, which too often prevents them from thinking outside the box. They are tied too strongly to their professions’ antiquated methods and procedures. Their reluctance to adopt innovative investigative techniques seriously limits their effectiveness.
      It’s time for police, prosecutors and the press to open their minds to new approaches. The Holloway case offers a perfect opportunity for professional investigators to embrace a cutting-edge psycholinguistic technique that will inevitably reveal the truth.”

    87. always 1 on May 4th, 2008 8:26 pm

      someone please tell me how to get to Patricks site again so I can understand what they are talking about in the Forum….Good post Bob….Katie, Esther the Molester is back….

    88. Richard on May 4th, 2008 8:28 pm

      Bob (#86) … And, of course, even more lurid scenarios are possible. Nobody knows (none of us, anyway) to what extent Joran is telling the truth.

      But the whole timeline, with all of this happening in just a few hours (according to the “Joran version”) and his conveniently calling “Daury,” who just happens to be obliging enough and self-possessed enough to get out of bed, show up with a boat, and take care of things ….

      Sorry, I can’t believe this.

    89. Richard on May 4th, 2008 8:32 pm

      Quoth a troll/poster:

      “Sasha, I am not Julia Renfro. I am Dick Miller, hahahaha”

      Speaking for myself, I don’t give a s–t who or what you are. You’re a deliberate pain in the ass. This site is about Natalee Holloway and the Aruban cover-up and denial of justice.

    90. always 1 on May 4th, 2008 9:24 pm

      hi Richard, do you know how to get to Patricks site?????

    91. misskatie on May 4th, 2008 10:01 pm

      omg always1

      that is to cute ester the molester
      and don her don juan

    92. misskatie on May 4th, 2008 10:02 pm

      calling all monkeys

      who has the link to that disgusting peter vandeream

    93. misskatie on May 4th, 2008 10:03 pm

      try as I may I cant keep up with the forum

    94. misskatie on May 4th, 2008 10:04 pm

      Im a little teapot
      short and stout
      scratchin my head
      trying to figure out whats what

    95. misskatie on May 4th, 2008 10:05 pm

      that didnt come out right
      im a little teapot short and stout
      trying to figure what its all about

      meaning the forum

    96. misskatie on May 4th, 2008 10:05 pm

      we all need humor to make it through some rough and tribulant days

    97. misskatie on May 4th, 2008 10:08 pm

      in reading some posts
      a comment was made that joran’s x girlfriend said
      that he liked rough sex
      it makes me wonder if they all did that with her that night she was taken!!!!

      he is evil… theres no telling what they did to her :(

    98. misskatie on May 4th, 2008 10:09 pm


      ALWAYS1 ????


    99. misskatie on May 4th, 2008 10:12 pm

      I can imagine how amy bradleys parents must feel .. especialy since there is a great possibility that she is still alive…

      didnt you say that you are in constant contact with them?

      God bless them… I just cannot imagine being in their place … I can imagine what beth’s pain is like but until you have walked a mile in their shoes
      you will never know the pain….

      the brutality of the crime would be harder to swallow….

      God be with them all and give them peace…..:(

    100. misskatie on May 4th, 2008 10:14 pm

      I think that always 1
      is busy going to and fro the internet…
      or she is … running from ester the molester and her drinking parter don…:)

    101. misskatie on May 4th, 2008 10:29 pm


      WE MISS YOU…




      BRIE.. PATTY CARPE…KAY ??? where are ya

    102. misskatie on May 4th, 2008 10:30 pm

      always 1

      dont forget to get the cofee ready for the morning
      your time to turn off the lights!!!

    103. always 1 on May 5th, 2008 9:01 am

      morning MissKatie

    104. always 1 on May 5th, 2008 9:15 am

      and MissKatie, I was just over in the Forum, apparently Klassand had the P Moan Ya and was in the HOSPITAl……but shes home and better now….Bless your heart Klassand….

    105. kiltie65 on May 5th, 2008 9:22 am

      Isn’t the website for Patrick van der eem:


      Sorry, don’t know how to post links.

    106. crossbow on May 5th, 2008 9:40 am

      bob 86:
      Thank you for your post;
      That is what we need, more analysis as to what might have happened to arrive at the truth.
      But what do we do with Capslockwizard’s theory of Matty’s appartment and mine where I feel that females may also have been involved?
      I can’t let Stephanie Croes out of this.
      Think about her involvement with Joran, Freddy, Deepak, Bailey Anne and Alyse a month before Natalee disappeared.
      There are three persons with no publicized police statements; Koen, Lorenzo and Stefi.
      I have almost 73 statements on record; they appear nowhere.

    107. kaye on May 5th, 2008 9:49 am

      i didn’t post over the weekend…..busy, but reading this morning I think some of us have forgotten the reason this forum exists and for who and for what cause. stay focused people. 3yr anniversary fast approaching.

    108. richard on May 5th, 2008 10:50 am

      MissKatie (#99) … Yes, I remain in close contact with the parents of Amy Bradley.

      As for the link to Patrick’s site, it is posted above. But after his confirmed copying of posts here and pasting them there, I will have nothing more to do with him. Nor do I care what he says on his site. Neither he nor deVries has achieved answers, at least not any answers that have led to a solution of this case. And the more that I think about it, the more convinced I am that Joran pulled the wool over his eyes somewhat.

    109. richard on May 5th, 2008 10:53 am

      Moderator Klaasen, if you were indeed ill, I’m sorry to hear about it … bad news for all of us who are sincerely interested in Natalee’s case … and I hope you’re better now.

      Hey, everyone, CBS Early Morning News (I believe) had some kind of brief review of Aruba today. It seems that even Aruba now is admitting that their tourism has been hit … of course, they won’t say it’s because of Natalee.

    110. Miss-Underestimated on May 5th, 2008 1:29 pm

      Klaas, get better, fast…..

      Just for the those who think there was not a cover up.

      June 10, 2005: The suspect has confessed and is leading the authorities to the body.

      4. Key words here, look in the dictionary for definitions of these words. suspect….confessed….authorities….body….

    111. Patti on May 5th, 2008 2:03 pm

      It hurts me more to know that Natalee may have been raped on top of everything else. It’s hard for me to imagine her in that situation. I think of her more as a woman in a cage, being held against her will, until the day of the sacrifice. And you may accuse me of drinking, or needing my medicine; but I think that there was a boy from Honduras that was in a cage, too.

      Honestly, in my heart of hearts, I think they want us to believe that it was all about sex to cause a distraction. As much as Joran lies, why would he come out with the truth about having sex with her in the car in a method that could have brought charges against him… going in and out of consciousness? I think he wanted us to think she was drugged and raped and tossed aside like trash, just like all the other murderers. But, in looking at the scene at the rocks, we know that there was a totally different mode of operation… one that can be described and is in the heritage of the Arawak.

      Perhaps she was raped,

      but that wasn’t how she died.



      Justice for Natalee!

    112. Patti on May 5th, 2008 2:18 pm

      Good to see you back, Kaye and Miss U…

      The Cover-Up of the Century

      Perpetrated by the Minister of Justice, himself…



      What is wrong with the people of Aruba?

      Do they REALLY put irons on their son’s foreheads?

      SOMETHING is amiss in Aruba…

      But, there’s GOT to be SOMEBODY normal

      on that God Forsaken island…



      Please give us something to hope for!

      … Justice!


    113. always 1 on May 5th, 2008 2:25 pm

      Patti, I did a lot of research on the Arawaks, I left messages to you on the last two sites….

    114. Don on May 5th, 2008 3:01 pm

      Arawak voodoo ! FYI Joran and friends have nothing to do with the Aruban heritage, you know as well as I that Joran is Dutch and his two friends are Surinam. Tying the Arawak traditions to this only proves that you are desperate. I can understand you want to solve this case. But this is nothing but imagination. Joran confessed. It’s only because of the legal system that he still is a free man.

    115. MissKatiekatie2u on May 5th, 2008 3:12 pm


    116. MissKatiekatie2u on May 5th, 2008 3:14 pm


    117. MissKatiekatie2u on May 5th, 2008 3:15 pm


    118. always 1 on May 5th, 2008 3:16 pm

      I have been over in the Forum…I finally have the posting down but cannot cut and paste a baby monkey to my profile. I have tried 3 times and nothing…I probably have little baby monkeys all over the internet by now!!!!They are talking about whether the Kalpoe brothers had anything to do with Nats murder…..

    119. MissKatiekatie2u on May 5th, 2008 3:36 pm

      I asked for patricks link because it was requested by always1 from me
      I care not to go there myself.. I dont care to hear his lies and propoganda

      he was in on the game with joran

    120. always 1 on May 5th, 2008 4:35 pm

      according to lalasmom(forum) Klassend did not get released from the hospital..(today at 5:28 pm)

    121. always 1 on May 5th, 2008 4:46 pm

      Carpe, are you sick too? Havent seen you around..

    122. misskatie on May 5th, 2008 8:12 pm

      goodnight monkeys

      goodnight natalee R.I.P

    123. always 1 on May 5th, 2008 8:48 pm

      are you going to bed already miss Katie…

    124. always 1 on May 5th, 2008 8:52 pm

      if monkeys dont start posting again, I am going to have to join a Lonely Hearts Club…..Seriously, MissKatie, I am leaving next week and am not taking my laptop because I have to change planes too many times…you will have to hold down the fort….

    125. always 1 on May 5th, 2008 9:03 pm

      Red or Observer, is the slowdown because of summer vacations or because Klassend is ill or what…..I have researched several topics and posted them and no one but trolls have responded, i do not understand….Even Carpe and Crossbow and Richard have been very quiet for them….

    126. molly in houston on May 5th, 2008 9:22 pm

      End of school, SM friends. Prom, graduation, parties to plan. My hair is falling out. Prolly everyone is busy.

      It’s also depressing that there has been no real news. Still believing for the truth. God knows what it is.

      boycott aruba
      molly in houston

    127. always 1 on May 5th, 2008 10:03 pm

      Thanks molly, Ill just go to sleep

    128. always 1 on May 6th, 2008 8:34 am

      Hi Carpe, I hoticed you over in the forum….what is going on over here? its 9:34 where I live and nothing….can you post a cartoon of APATHY???

    129. Miss Katie on May 6th, 2008 9:12 am

      yes I went to bed early … it was quiet here.. I did surf thru the forum but … decided it was checkout time.. here it is a new day
      and back at work… surfin the net..

    130. Miss Katie on May 6th, 2008 9:16 am

      lol always1
      I will man the post lol.. so your going on a trip without your laptop I would have withdrawls!!
      well wherever your going
      do enjoy..
      drop us a postcard…

    131. Miss Katie on May 6th, 2008 9:24 am

      yeah I hear ya…
      it is totaly disheartening that there is no news on this case..
      I went to bed last night and spent some time praying for natalee and her family
      it has been three long yrs and still I see no justice for natalee
      I see the people involved going about their normal lives.. mocking us.. and I wonder why why lord isnt there some kind of sign that you hear our prayers..
      the deepak boys going to and fro in aruba carefree … free to repeat this action again… as they so bragged about in the past…
      than you have idiot joran … god knows where he is…
      his parents enabling him.. they know the boy has serious defects.. to bad we cant send him back to the manufacturer…with a sign .. DO NOT RETURN!!!his parents just dont get it… they have a serious problem on their hands… a future bundy… he has got a good head start…
      well hopefully molly.. something will happen…
      until than the journey continues….


    132. Miss Katie on May 6th, 2008 9:27 am

      meanwhile we all prevail

    133. Miss Katie on May 6th, 2008 9:30 am

      lmao always1

      only trolls responding to you
      what is this world coming to…
      I think the posters come here and see no news so they go to the forum……….

      I was here last night and it was so quiet
      in the distance…
      I heard the lonsesome whistle blowing…

    134. Miss Katie on May 6th, 2008 9:41 am

      I just wished that somethin would happen…
      that the boys involved..
      would soon start getting their karma DOSE..

      one by one like the domino effect…

      I think of beth and dave often…
      and wonder how they are faring…
      to wakeup each day to face the fact that natalee will never return and that they will never see her again
      this side of heaven..
      is tough I am sure……..

      her only daughter .. now that is sad..

      there was a time that I had wanted to take a cruise to the bahamas.. maybe even aruba…
      but in light of all that has happened in aruba
      I think not!!!

      I think of amy bradleys parents… the daily burden of not knowing if amy is still alive.. and if she is…
      is she suffering…..

      how are amy’s parents and do they think she is alive?

      you have kept in touch with them…
      god bless them ….to think that they started out their cruise…. on a happy carefree note to have it end before they even got off the ship….
      what a trajedy…..

      the evil that lurks on those tropical islands… hidden by the deception of beauty…what you see isnt always what you get…..

    135. always 1 on May 6th, 2008 9:45 am

      wow, oil just jumped to $122…..that will probably stop some people from going to Aruba..I wonder if you had say 6 pumpers going on your old farm and still collected mineral rights, would you break even on gas or would you be in the drink….Ive read they are making the planes fly slower….does that make sense to you….if you fly slower to save gas, but it takes longer to get there…arent you shooting yourself in the foot?

    136. always 1 on May 6th, 2008 10:03 am

      maybe the Kalpoe Brothers could drive HooverCars. they could call it Hoover in Aruba HA…for you young monkeys, Hoovercars were cars during the Depression that were pulled by horses, how sad is that????

    137. always 1 on May 6th, 2008 11:02 am

      MissKatie, now that Ive started posting in the Forum. it doesnt seem hard at all…just more steps. did you see the passport of Joran???

    138. Sharon Chicago on May 6th, 2008 11:08 am

      I have not been on SM for a few weeks and wondered any update on whats going on with
      Joran and 2K’s?

    139. always 1 on May 6th, 2008 11:33 am

      Well, Katie, I need to go pack…still debating on my laptop (everytime I say laptop, I think about CrossBow and get the vapors Ha!) talk to you later..

    140. always 1 on May 6th, 2008 12:09 pm

      Sharon, there is a passport of Jorans posted online showing he is is Thailand (real or not?) Klassend has been very ill and is just home from hospital….

    141. Patti on May 6th, 2008 2:35 pm

      Always 1:

      I saw your question about the snuff the Arawaks use and I have some research that I posted for you that proves that they practice magic and cast spells, like Voodoo.

      They are Heartfeltly Respected as Native Ancestors of the Hispanolas… the islands. By being ancestors, many of the practices of the Arawak is incorporated into the religion of Voodoo. There is also a Catholic publication that addresses the fact that the Arawak could never be converted and the Haitians, simply, hid behind the screen of being Catholic to continue to practice their Pagan religious ceremonies. It also addresses the fact that the Arawak are cannibals, like many other South American Indians… most of which can be historically tied to the original – The Arawak!


      I’ll continue to research and if you do the same, please post the article. Many times the articles will disappear off the net…

      Cut and Paste.

    142. Patti on May 6th, 2008 2:49 pm


      You’re such a putz.

      Where do they get the girls and boys

      to sacrifice to their gods?

      Buy them?!?!!



      I’ll bet the Arawak got an EXTRA TREAT with

      an 18 year old, blonde American Beauty!

      (especially Oduber…. with the American part)



    143. Patti on May 6th, 2008 3:02 pm


      Miss Katie:

      I wuv YOU!


      I think we’re in a waiting game.

      So all we can do is prepare ourselves

      for the worse and pray for the best.


      Personally, I think we’ve got what we need to prove a conspiracy, cause of death and, perhaps, even cannibalism with body parts. Question is: How far will the world go to protect some sac-religious heathens? Is the U.S. waiting on the Dutch, to test their integrity? Maybe.

    144. always 1 on May 6th, 2008 3:30 pm

      Thanks Patti

    145. molly in houston on May 6th, 2008 5:25 pm

      MISS KATIE, et al. I imagine that Beth and Dave are having a hard time with this waiting game. And Beth thought that she would just fly down to Aruba and get her daughter who missed the plane. Who would have thought that 3 years and all this mess would have kept her waiting and wondering.

      Miss Katie, I wonder why the Lord is waiting also. There is a verse in Isaiah that talks about how the Lord loves justice. I believe that and have seen it happen other times. And then there are these situations………and people wait and wait. There are many verses in Psalms where it says that evil with be destroyed and/or evil people will meet their end, etc. I don’t know why we have to wait for so long except that the evil is very real and bad. so the battle is long and hard. Praying is the best warfare.

      boycott aruba
      molly in houston

    146. molly in houston on May 6th, 2008 5:27 pm

      ALWAYS1: My husband works in the oil industry. We can’t figure out who exactly is profitting from these exhorbitant prices. It is horrible. I rather doubt that many people can afford to fly this summer. We certainly have changed our plans because of the prices.

      boycott aruba
      molly in houston

    147. always 1 on May 6th, 2008 5:32 pm

      Molly, doesnt the Bible also say Let the dead bury the dead, pick up your cross and follow me…which I think is what we as monkeys, are doing….right?

    148. misskatie on May 6th, 2008 6:10 pm

      it is the warfare…
      what I dont understand is that..
      the bible also says .. where two or three are gathered in my name… there I am aslo

      many of us here believe in prayer.. and many have sought the face of god for justice.. it just baffles me why not in this case….

      I know many of us pray when we lay our head down at night… for god to intervene…
      I dont understand what is happening here with that…
      those evil people that did that to natalee…
      are walking around free to commit more crimes or evil acts to someone else.
      I know god doesnt like ugly and it makes me wonder about…
      those idiots that did that to natalee are oviously not god serving so if they are not where do they get such protection and shield from justice…
      when you live by the sword you die by the sword!!
      BUT WHEN

      lord gives a sign you hear our prayers!!!

    149. always 1 on May 6th, 2008 6:33 pm

      wanna hear something really funny? I was logging on the the forum, I pushed the maximum button to make the screen larger and it was at the top of my screen and there is a radio station there so it pushed that button at the same time….so music came on when i pulled up the Forum page…I though my gosh, Klassend has added songs !!!!!

    150. Patti on May 6th, 2008 9:34 pm

      Always 1 et al:



      I did do some research, because, it really bothered me to think that all these people in Aruba are saying they’re Catholics.

      I read the whole thing. Basically, it says that the Caribe and the Taino are one in the same… Arawak. If you get bored with all the history of these tribes, you can cut right to the chase in reading the last paragraph.

      Sorry for the long post, in advance:


      (Also Aruacans).

      The first American aborigines met by Columbus — not to be confounded with the Aroacas or Arhouaques, linguistically allied to the Chibohas of Columbia — an Indian stock widely distributed over South America. Tribes speaking dialects of the Arawak language are met with in and between Indians of other linguistic stocks, from the sources of the Paraguay to the northwestern shores of Lake Maracaybo (Goajiros), from the eastern slopes of the Andes in Peru and Bolivia to the Atlantic coast in Guyana. The Arawaks were met by Columbus in 1492, on the Bahamas, and later on in Haiti, Cuba, Jamaica, and Puerto Rico. In the fifteenth century and possibly for several centuries previous, Indians of Arawak stock occupied the Greater Antilles. It is not impossible that up to a certain time before Columbus they may have held all the West Indian Islands. Then an intrusive Indian element, that of the Caribs, gradually encroached on the southern Antilles from the mainland of Venezuela and drove the Arawaks northward. The latter showed a decided fear of their aggressors, a feeling increased by the cannibalism of the Caribs.

      Generally speaking, the Arawaks are in a condition between savagery and agriculture, and the status varies according to the environment. The Arawaks on the Bahamas were practically defenseless against the Caribs. The aborigines of Cuba and Haiti, enjoying superior material advantages, stood on a somewhat higher plane. The inhabitants of Jamaica and Puerto Rico, immediate neighbors of the Caribs, were almost as fierce as the latter, and probably as anthropophagous. Wedged in (after the discovery of Columbus) between the Caribs on the South and the Europeans, the former relentless destroyers, the latter startling innovators, the northern Arawaks were doomed. In the course of half a century they succumbed to the unwonted labor imposed them, epidemics doing their share towards extermination. Abuse has been heaped upon Spain for this inevitable result of first contact between races whose civilization was different and whose ideas were so incompatible. Colonization in its beginning on American soil had to go through a series of experiments, and the Indians naturally were the victims. Then the experimenters (as is always the case in newly discovered lands) did not at first belong to the most desirable class. Columbus himself (a brilliant navigator but a poor administrator) did much to contribute to the outcome by measures well-intended but impractical, on account of absolute lack of acquaintance with the nature of American aborigines.

      The Church took a deep interest in the fate of the Antillean Arawaks. The Hieronymites, and later, the Dominicans defended their cause, and propagated Christianity among them. They also carefully studied their customs and religious beliefs. Frey Roman Pane, a Hieronymite, has left us a very remarkable report on the lore and ceremonials of the Indians of Haiti (published in Italian in 1571, in Spanish in 1749, and in French in 1864); shorter descriptions, from anonymous, but surely ecclesiastical, sources, are contained in the “Documentos in editos de Indias”. The report of Frey Roman Pane antedates 1508, and it is the first purely ethnographic treatise on American Indians.

      While lamenting the disappearance of the Indians of the Antilles, writers of the Columbian period have, for controversial effect, greatly exaggerated the numbers of these peoples; hence the number of victims charged to Spanish rule. It is not possible that Indians constantly warring with each other, and warred upon by an outside enemy like the Caribs, not given to agriculture except in as far as women worked the crops, without domestic animals, in an enervating climate, would have been nearly as numerous as, for instance, Las Casas asserts. The extermination of the Antillean Arawaks under Spanish rule has not yet been impartially written. It is no worse a page in history than many filled with English atrocities, or those which tell how the North American aborigines have been disposed of in order to make room for the white man. The Spanish did not, and could not, yet know of the nature and the possibilities of the Indian. They could not understand that a race physically well-endowed, but the men of which had no conception of work, could not be suddenly changed into hardy tillers of the soil and miners. And yet the Indian had to be made to labor, as the white population was entirely too small for developing the resources of the new-found lands. The European attributed the inaptitude of the Indian for physical labor to obstinency, and only too often vented his impatience in acts of cruelty. The Crown made the utmost efforts to mitigate, and to protect the aborigine, but ere the period of experiments was over, the latter had almost vanished.

      As already stated, the Arawaks, presumably, held the lesser Antilles also, until, previous to the Columbian era, the Caribs expelled them, thus separating the northern branch from the main stock on the southern continent. Of the latter it has been surmised that their original homes were on the eastern slope of the Andes, where the Campas (Chunchos or Antis) represent the Arawak element, together with the Shipibos, Piros, Conibos and other tribes of the extensive Pano group. A Spanish officer, Perdro de Candia, first discovered them in 1538. The earliest attempts at Christianization are due to the Jesuits. They made, previous to 1602, six distinct efforts to convert the Chunchos, from the side of Huánuco in Peru, and from northern Bolivia, but all these attempts were failures. There are also traces that a Jesuit had penetrated those regions in 1581, more as an explorer than as a missionary. Not withstanding the ill-success accompanying the first efforts, the Jesuits persevered, and founded missions among the Moxos, one of the most southerly branches of the Arawaks, and also among the Baures. Those missions were, of course, abandoned after 1767. During the past century the Franciscans have taken up the field of which the Jesuits were deprived, especially the missions among the Pano, or Shipibo tribes of the Beni region of Bolivia. The late Father Raphael Sanz was one of the first to devote himself to the difficult and dangerous task, and he was ably followed by Father Nicholas Armentia, who is now Bishop of La Paz. The latter has also done very good work in the field of linguistics. Missions among the Goajiros in Columbia, however, had but little success. Of late, the tribe has become more approachable. The Arawaks of the upper Amazonian region were probably met by Alanso Mercadillo, in 1537, and may have been seen by Orellana in 1538-39. The Arawak tribes occupying almost exclusively the southern bank of the Amazon, they were reached by the missionaries later than the tribes of the north bank. Missionaries accompanied Juan Salinas de Loyola (a relative of St. Ignatius) in 1564. But the results of these expeditions were not permanent.

      In the heart of the Andean region the Friars of the Order of Our Lady of Mercy (Mercedarios) were the first to establish permanent missions. Fray Francisco Ponce de Leon, “Commander of the convent of the city of Jaén de Bracacamoros”, and Diego Vaca de Vega, Governor of Jaén, organized in 1619 an expedition down the Marañon to the Maynas. In 1619 they founded the mission of San Francisco Borja, which still exists as a settlement. The first baptisms of Indians took place 22 March, 1620. The year following, Father Ponce made an expedition lower down the Amazon, beyond the mouth of the Rio Huallaga where he came in contact with the Arawak tribes, to whom he preached, and some of whom he baptized. The Franciscans entered from the direction of Juaja or Tarma, toward Chanchamayo, in 1631, and 1635. The first foundation was at Quimiri, where a chapel was built. Two years later the founders, Father Gerónimo Ximénez, and Cristóval Larios, died at the hands of the Campas on the Péréné River. Work was not interrupted, however, and three years later (1640) there were established about the salt-hill of Vitoc seven chapels, each with a settlement of Indian converts. But in 1742 the appearance of Juan Santos Atahualpa occasioned an almost general uprising of the aborigines. Until then the missions had progressed remarkably. Some of the most savage tribes, like the Canibos, became at least partially reduced to obedience, and led a more sedate, orderly life. In 1725 the College of Ocopa was founded. All these gains (except the College of Ocopa and the regions around Tarma and Cajamarquilla) were lost until, after 1751, Franciscan missions again began to enter the lost territory, and even added more conquests among the fiercest Arawaks (Cashibos) on the Ucayali. Conversions in these regions have cost many martyrs, not less than sixty-four ecclesiastics having perished at the hands of Indians of Arawak stock in the years between 1637 and 1766. Missionary work among the Arawaks of Guyana and on the banks of the Orinoco began, in a systematic manner, in the second half of the seventeenth century, and was carried on, from the Spanish side, among the Maypures of the Orinoco, from the French side along the coast and the Essequibo River. Wars between France, England, and Holland, the indifferent, systemless ways of French colonization, but chiefly the constant incursion of the Caribs, interrupted or at least greatly obstructed the progress of missions.


      Last Paragraph:

      Ethnologically the Arawaks vary in condition. Those of Guyana seem to be partly sedentary. They call themselves Loknono. They are well built. Descent among them is in the female line, and they are polygamous. They are land-tillers and hunters. Their houses are sheds, open on the sides, and their weapons are bows, arrows, and wooden clubs. Their religious ideas are, locally varied, those of all Indians, animism or fetishism, with an army of shamans, or medicine-men, to uphold it. Of the Campas and the tribes comprised within the Pano group, about the same may be stated, with the difference that several of the tribes composing it are fierce cannibals, (Cashibos and Canibos). It must be observed, however, that cannibalism is, under certain conditions, practiced by all the forest tribes of South America, as well as by the Aymara of Bolivia. It is mostly a ceremonial practice, and, at the bottom, closely related to the custom of scalping.

      Publication information
      Written by Ad. F. Bandelier. Transcribed by M. Donahue.
      The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume I. Published 1907. New York: Robert Appleton Company. Nihil Obstat, March 1, 1907. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York

      The “Letters of Columbus” contain the earliest information about the American Indians, and those described in his first letter, 22 February, 1493, were Arawaks. The report of Frey Roman Pane is found in the works of Fernando Colon, the Spanish original of which has not yet been found, but an Italian version of it was published in 1751. There are several editions. Quotations above are from Historia del Signor D. Hernando Columbo. Nelle quale s’ ha particulare & vera relazione della vita, e de fatti del’ Ammiraglio D. Christoforo Columbo Suo Padre (Venice, 1678), the translation is by Alfonso Ulloa. A first Spanish retranslation was published by Gonzalez Barcia in Historiadores primitiva de Indios (Madrid, 1749); a French version by Abbe Brasseur de Bourbourg appears appended to the Relation des choses de Yucatan (Paris, 1864), and there is a second print in Spanish of recent date. La Casa, Historia de las Indias (two editions, one in the Documentos para la Historia del Espana); Brevissima Relacion de la Destruycion de las Indias (Seville, 1552), numerous editions and translations into various languages; Girolamo Benzoni; Historia del Mundo Nouvo (Venice, 1585); German translation, 1579; French, 1587; English, Hackluyt Society, History of the New World (London, 1857). Other sources: Oviedo y Valdez, Historia general y natural de las Indias (first print. Madrid, 1535, comprising only the first nineteen books; complete edition, Madrid, 1851); Gomara, Historia general de los hechos de los Castellanos &ca. (Madrid, 1601-15); other editions, and more accessible ones: Madrid, 1728-30, and Antwerp, 1728. On missions, references are (mentioning only the most prominent sources): the Relaciones geograficos de Indias (II and IV, Madrid, 1885 and 1897), which contain elaborate discussions of the expeditions of Salinas Loyola, and of Vaca de Vega, and documents relative to the ecclesiastics connected with them: cardova Salinas Coronica de la Religiosisima Provincia de los Doce Apostolos de Piru (Lima, 1651); Arriga, Extirpacion de la Idolatria del Piru (Lima, 1651); Calancha, Coronica moralizda de la oredn de San Augustin en el Piru (Lima, 1638; second part, 1653); Documentos ineditos de Indias. passim; C. Quandt, Nachricht von Surinam und Seinen Einwohnen (Gorlitz, 1807). An important vocabulary of the Shipibo dialect (Pano of the Beni) by Bishop Armentia has been published in the Buletin de la Sociedad de Geografica de la Paz. It is the most complete thusfar known. Literature on the Arawaks being so very abundant, many works cannot be mentioned here.

      Copyright © 2008 by Kevin Knight. Dedicated to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.


      Patti on May 5th, 2008 5:23 pm
      That was from the Catholic Dictionery


      Then I found it interesting that in Haiti, Catholics were permitted to practice Vodou. Look under History of the Haitian Vodou.

      Haitian Vodou
      From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
      (January 2008)

      This article or section includes a list of references or external links, but its sources remain unclear because it lacks in-text citations.
      You can improve this article by introducing more precise citations.

      This article is about the syncretistic Haitian religion. For the West African religion, see West African Vodun. For the related tradition in Louisiana, see Louisiana Voodoo. For other uses, see Voodoo.

      Vodou ceremony, Jacmel, Haiti.Vodou (Anglicized: Voodoo) is a name attributed to a New World syncretistic religion, or family of religions, based on the faiths of the Fon, Ewe, and related peoples of West Africa (see West African Vodun), of the Kongo people of Central Africa (see Lemba), and of Christianity. It is found in areas of the African diaspora, especially Haiti, Dominican Republic, Cuba, and Brazil. This article is primarily concerned with the form of the religion as it is practiced in Haiti and the Dominican Republic. See Louisiana Voodoo for the Afro-creole tradition of New Orleans, Santería and Arará for the forms local to Cuba, and Candomblé and Umbanda for Brazil.

      In Vodou [voo - doo], all Creation is divine and therefore contains divine power, which can be accessed by practitioners. The core functions of Vodou are to explain the forces of the universe, to influence those forces, and to influence human behavior. Vodou oral traditions carry genealogy, history, and fables. Adherents honor deities and venerate ancestors, both ancient and recent.

      When the word Vodou is capitalized, it denotes the religion. In lower case, it means the spirits of the religion.

      Contents [hide]
      1 African origins
      2 Haitian Vodou
      2.1 History
      2.1.1 Vodou and spiritualism
      2.2 Beliefs
      2.3 Liturgy and practice
      2.4 Values and ethics
      2.5 Orthodoxy and diversity
      3 Myths and misconceptions
      4 Notes
      5 References
      6 See also

      African origins

      Vodou original area

      The word voodoo derives from vod?, which in Fon, Ewe, and related language (distributed from contemporary Ghana to Benin) means spirit or divine creature (in the sense of divine creation).

      The cultural area of the Fon, Ewe, and Yoruba peoples share common metaphysical conceptions around a dual cosmological divine principle Nana Buluku, the God-Creator, and the vodou(s) or God-Actor(s), daughters and sons of the Creator’s twin children Mawu (goddess of the moon) and Lisa (god of the sun). The God-Creator is the cosmogonical principle and does not trifle with the mundane; the vodou(s) are the God-Actor(s) who actually govern earthly issues.

      The pantheon of vodoun is quite large and complex. In one version, there are seven male and female twins of Mawu, interethnic and related to natural phenomena or historical or mythical individuals, and dozens of ethnic Vodous, defenders of a certain clan or tribe.[citation needed]

      West African Vodun has its primary emphasis on the ancestors, with each family of spirits having its own specialized priest- and priestesshood which are often hereditary. In many African clans, deities might include Mami Wata, who are gods and goddesses of the waters; Legba, who in some clans is virile and young in contrast to the old man form he takes in Haiti and in many parts of Togo; Gu (or Ogoun), ruling iron and smithcraft; Sakpata, who rules diseases; and many other spirits distinct in their own way to West Africa.

      European colonialism, followed by totalitarian regimes in West Africa, suppressed Vodun as well as other forms of the religion. However, because the Vodou deities are born to each African clan-group, and its clergy is central to maintaining the moral, social, and political order and ancestral foundation of its villagers, it proved to be impossible to eradicate the religion. Though permitted by Haiti’s 1987 constitution, which recognizes religious equality, many books and films have sensationalized voodoo as black magic based on animal and human sacrifices to summon zombies and evil spirits.

      Today in West Africa, Vodun is estimated to be practised by over 30 million people. Vodoun became the official religion of Benin in 1996. Both American and Caribbean variations of the faith system center on ancestral spirits and two main pantheons of Lwas; tribal relationships are de-emphasized.

      Haitian Vodou

      In Haitian Vodou or Sèvis Lwa or “Service to the Spirits” in Haitian Creole (kreyòl ayisyen), there are strong elements from the Bakongo of Central Africa and the Igbo and Yoruba of Nigeria, although many different people or nations of Africa have representation in the liturgy of the Sèvis Lwa. Islam has also been noted in some services. Among these other nations are the **** Taíno and Arawak Indians ****, venerated as the indigenous population (and hence, a form of ancestors) of the island now known as Hispaniola. A large and significant portion of Haitian Vodou most often overlooked by scholars, especially English-speaking ones, until recently is the Kongo component. The entire Northern area of Haiti is especially influenced by Kongo practice. In the North, it is more often called Kongo Rite or Lemba, from the Lemba rites of the Loango area and Mayombe. In the south, Kongo influence is called Petwo (Petro). Many loas or lwas (also a Kikongo term) are of Kongo origin such as Basimbi, Lemba, etc.

      Haitian creole forms of Vodou exist in Haiti, the Dominican Republic, parts of Cuba, the United States, and other places that Haitian immigrants dispersed to over the years. However, it is important to note that the Vodoun religion existed in the United States, having been brought over by West Africans enslaved in America, specifically from the Ewe, Fon, Mina, Kabaye, and Nago groups. Some of its more enduring forms still exist in the Gullah Islands. There is a re-emergence of these Vodoun traditions in America, which maintains the same linealritual and cosmological elements as is practiced in West Africa. These and other African-diasporic religions such as Lukumi or Regla de Ocha (also known as Santería) in Cuba, Candomblé and Umbanda in Brazil, all religions that evolved among descendants of transplanted Africans in the Americas.


      The majority of the Africans who were brought as slaves to Haiti were from Western and Central Africa. The Vodoun practitioners brought over and enslaved in the United States primarily descend from the Ewe, Anlo-Ewe, and other West African groups.[citation needed] The survival of the belief systems in the New World is remarkable, although the traditions have changed with time and have even taken on some Catholic forms of worship. One of the largest differences, however, between African and Haitian Vodou is that the transplanted Africans of Haiti were obliged to disguise their loa (sometimes spelled lwa) or spirits as Roman Catholic saints, an element of a process called syncretism.

      Roman Catholicism was mixed into the religion to hide their “pagan” religion from their masters, who had forbidden them to practice it. Any practitioners caught doing anything outside of the Catholic religion would be subject to execution. To say that Haitian Vodou is simply a mix of West African religions with a veneer of Roman Catholicism would be correct. To this day, many uneducated Haitians practicing this religion will integrate Roman Catholic practices by including their prayers in the ceremony. Throughout the history of the island from the day of independence of 1804 to the present, missionaries repeatedly came over to the island to convert the Haitians back to the Christian religion into which they were forced. This has set many Haitians to project vodou as an evil religion, from the influence of the missionaries to abusive practitioners who use vodou to persecute. Practitioners want to convince other religious groups in the Haitian Islands that their religion involves God as much as Christianity.

      Vodou, as it is known in Haiti and the Haitian diaspora, is the result of the pressures of many different cultures and ethnicities of people being uprooted from Africa and imported to Hispaniola during the African slave trade. Under slavery, African culture and religion was suppressed, lineages were fragmented, and people pooled their religious knowledge and from this fragmentation became culturally unified. In addition to combining the spirits of many different African and Indian nations, Vodou has incorporated pieces of Roman Catholic liturgy to replace lost prayers or elements. Images of Catholic saints are used to represent various spirits or “mistè” (”mysteries”, actually the preferred term in Haiti), and many saints themselves are honored in Vodou in their own right. This syncretism allows Vodou to encompass the African, the Indian, and the European ancestors in a whole and complete way. It is truly a Kreyòl religion.

      The most historically important Vodou ceremony in Haitian history was the Bwa Kayiman or Bois Caïman ceremony of August 1791 that began the Haitian Revolution, in which the spirit Ezili Dantor possessed a priestess and received a black pig as an offering, and all those present pledged themselves to the fight for freedom. This ceremony ultimately resulted in the liberation of the Haitian people from French colonial rule in 1804, and the establishment of the first black people’s republic in the history of the world and the second independent nation in the Americas.

      Haitian vodou crossed over in the United States as early as the 1800s, but surfaced mainly in New Orleans. One practitioner that popularized it in the area was the famed Vodou Queen Marie Laveau, but other forms of vodou existed in the United States dating before the 1776 revolution. Because of the system imposed to slaves in all of the British colonies in the western hemisphere, many masters were able to control their slaves to make absolutely no attempt to practice any religion of African origin. Drum beats heard by the master in the American territory would cause slaves to be subject to punishment.

      Over the years Haitian Vodou had received a negative reputation by the ignorance of the Americans, Europeans and people throughout the world that were exposed to Haitians. Missionaries had reported it, but it wasn’t until the latter half of the 19th century that a book written in 1886 by Sir Spencer St. Johns, Hayti, or the Black Republic, accused Haitian Vodou practitioners of practicing cannibalism. Throughout the 20th century, Haitian Vodou was depicted by Hollywood as being an evil and menacing religion with spells by witch doctors and tales of zombies. However, by 1950, a film director named Maya Deren did a three-year research project from 1947 to 1950 in which she showed vodou as a religion of beauty and magnificence. She even wrote the book The Divine Horseman, which gives details about the religion.

      Though Vodou had a bad reputation in the early half of the 20th century in America and Haiti, by the 1960s Haitians migrating to the United Stated began to grow in greater numbers. Though the practice was acceptable but did not constitute a religion, Haitians began to expose its practice in the larger Haitian communities in New York, Miami, Chicago, and Philadelphia and even in Montreal and Paris. Though Haitians practiced and showed their vodou pride throughout the country and even during Mardi Gras, Haiti did not recognize vodou as a religion until April 4, 2003.

      Today Vodou is practiced not only by Haitians, but by Americans and people of many nationalities that are exposed to the Haitian culture. However, because of the demand some impose on vodou, high priests and priestesses began the abuse of exploiting their clients and asking high monetary funds for work that brings no result. It can be said that the culture of vodou is becoming a dying religion due to the greed of many who practice. It is known that the majority of Haitians involved in the practice have been initiated to become a Houngan or Mambo. In Haiti, a houngan or mambo is considered a person of possible high power and status who can make a significant amount of money. It’s a growing occupation in Haiti that attracts many impoverished citizen to practice this field, not only to have power but to have money as well. Many vodou practitioners with a hunger to live a life of money and power go into this field to exploit foreigners and Haitians who are uneducated about vodou into their web of scams to collect many monetary funds with exchange of poor quality work.

      [edit] Vodou and spiritualism
      Vodou is a religion/practice that is greatly concerned with spirits. Practitioners that participate may be exposed to the spirits carried by their ancestors that they once served. Those who don’t practice may be involved with great exposure to spiritual experiences. One way that those who participate or practice can have the spiritual experience is when one is possessed by the lwa. When the lwa comes on the practitioner, their body is being used by the spirit. At this point the spirit will perform acts that it desires to do. Some spirits can give prophecies of upcoming events or situation around the possessed one, also called “Chwal” or the “Horse of the Spirit.” When one is possessed, the possessed one has no conscious memory of what has occurred. There is no such thing as a partial possession but only full. Practitioners experience this as being a beautiful but very tiring experience. Most people who are possessed by the spirit get a feeling of blackness or energy flowing through their body as if they were being electrocuted. When this occurs, it is a sign that a possession is in the works. The practitioner has absolutely no recollection and in fact when the possessing spirit leaves the body, the possessed one is tired and wonders what has happened during the possession. Practitioners with this gift do not like being overexposed because it drains immense energy from them. Not many can have or do have this gift. This gift cannot be purchased but only the spirit/lwa can choose who it wants to possess, for the spirit may have a mission that it can carry out spiritually. Also, those possessed by the lwa may be at a very high spiritual level that their soul is at a mature advanced status.

      Practitioners who claim that they do not feel fatigue after every possession, or who are possessed by more than one spirit without feeling tired, are charlatans. They pretend to be possessed and act like they have the spirit on them without having any spirit present. Some of these false practices are done by people who want the attention or importance, because those who are possessed do carry a high importance in the ceremony as the enlightened. These practitioners with fake possession practice this by drinking to the point where their drunkenness creates a new character that is not recognized by others. Sometimes they pretend to have the possession but with a lwa that drinks and carry the act by drinking more. Others who do not drink just carry on the act until they conduct a lwa-like task that a human can’t perform and that’s when jeopardy hits the fake possessed person. Beware of these kinds of people. Vodou has some scam artists, just as many other religions have. This is due to the ego of one who wants to be noticed, respected and popular. The attention paid to the possessed one is great, but at the same time creates an individual thirst for power with no spiritual gifts to act out the role of the lwa.

      [edit] Beliefs
      Haitian Vodouisants believe, in accordance with widespread African tradition, that there is one God who is the creator of all, referred to as “Bondyè” (from the French “Bon Dieu” or “Good God”). Bondyè is distinguished from the God of “the whites” in a dramatic speech by the houngan Boukman at Bwa Kayiman, but is often considered the same God of other religions, such as Christianity and Islam. Bondyè is distant from His/Her/Its creation though, and so it is the spirits or the “mysteries”, “saints”, or “angels” that the Vodouisant turns to for help, as well as to the ancestors. Some Vodouisants do not believe in Bondyè, instead referring to Damballa as the Creator. Others will believe in both: with Damballa having a lesser role in creation. A Vodouisant will usually have an idea God, regardless of the relationship with Damballa (from identity with God, to Damballa being a lesser spirit).

      There are said to be twenty-one nations or “Nation” of spirits, also sometimes called “lwa-yo”. Some of the more important nations of lwa are the Rada (corresponding to the Gbe-speaking ethnic groups in the modern-day Republic of Benin, Nigeria, and Togo); the Nago (synonymous with the Yoruba-speaking ethnicities in Nigeria, the Republic of Benin, and Togo); and the numerous West-Central African ethnicities united under the ethnonym Kongo. The spirits also come in “families” that all share a surname, like Ogou, or Ezili, or Azaka or Ghede. For instance, “Ezili” is a family, Ezili Dantor and Ezili Freda are two individual spirits in that family. The Ogou family are soldiers, the Ezili govern the feminine spheres of life, the Azaka govern agriculture, the Ghede govern the sphere of death and fertility. In Dominican Vodou, there is also an Agua Dulce or “Sweet Waters” family, which encompasses all Amerindian spirits. There are literally hundreds of lwa. Well known individual lwa include Danbala Wedo, Papa Legba Atibon, and Agwe Tawoyo.

      In Haitian Vodou, spirits are divided according to their nature of their nations. There are the nation of the Congo, Rada, Petwo, Nago, Dahomey, Ghede, and etc. The two popular categories the Haitian believers utilizes are the nation of the Petwo, the more aggressive and the Rada, the calmer spirits.

      Rada spirits are familial and congenial, while Petwo spirits are more combative and restless. Both can be dangerous if angry or upset, and despite claims to the contrary, neither is “good” or “evil” in relation to the other. Everyone is said to have spirits, and each person is considered to have a special relationship with one particular spirit who is said to “own their head”, however each person may have many lwa, and the one that owns their head, or the “met tet”, may or may not be the most active spirit in a person’s life in Haitian belief.

      In serving the spirits, the Vodouisant seeks to achieve harmony with their own individual nature and the world around them, manifested as personal power and resourcefulness in dealing with life. Part of this harmony is membership in and maintaining relationships within the context of family and community. A Vodou house or society is organized on the metaphor of an extended family, and initiates are the “children” of their initiators, with the sense of hierarchy and mutual obligation that implies.

      Most Vodouisants are not initiated, referred to as being “bossale”; it is not a requirement to be an initiate in order to serve one’s spirits. There are clergy in Haitian Vodou whose responsibility it is to preserve the rituals and songs and maintain the relationship between the spirits and the community as a whole (though some of this is the responsibility of the whole community as well). They are entrusted with leading the service of all of the spirits of their lineage. Priests are referred to as “Houngans” and priestesses as “Mambos”. Below the houngans and mambos are the hounsis, who are initiates who act as assistants during ceremonies and who are dedicated to their own personal mysteries.

      One does not serve just any lwa but only the ones they “have” according to one’s destiny or nature. Which spirits a person “has” may be revealed at a ceremony, in a reading, or in dreams. However all Vodouisants also serve the spirits of their own blood ancestors, and this important aspect of Vodou practice is often glossed over or minimized in importance by commentators who do not understand the significance of it. The ancestor cult is in fact the basis of Vodou religion, and many lwa like Agasou (formerly a king of Dahomey) for example are in fact ancestors who are said to have been raised up to divinity.

      [edit] Liturgy and practice
      After a day or two of preparation setting up altars, ritually preparing and cooking fowl and other foods, etc., a Haitian Vodou service begins with a series of Catholic prayers and songs in French, then a litany in Kreyòl and African “langaj” that goes through all the European and African saints and lwa honored by the house, and then a series of verses for all the main spirits of the house. This is called the “Priyè Gine” or the African Prayer. After more introductory songs, beginning with saluting the spirit of the drums named Hounto, the songs for all the individual spirits are sung, starting with the Legba family through all the Rada spirits, then there is a break and the Petwo part of the service begins, which ends with the songs for the Gede family. As the songs are sung spirits will come to visit those present by taking possession of individuals and speaking and acting through them. There are some cases where some practitioners who seek attention would pretend to get possessed. There are times when the houngan would drink until he is very drunk at the end of the ceremony. Some practitioners of these vodou ceremony fall into being fooled by the vodou priest. When a ceremony is made, only the family of those possessed is benefited. This is the greatest time these mambo or houngan can take your luck if they ask for champagne from you. Beware when that occurs. Sometimes these ceremony have some dispute going among the singers because of the way its sung. In Haiti, these vodou ceremonies, depending on the Priest or Priestess, may be more organized. But in the United States, vodou practitioner and the priests/priestess takes it as a folly party. Each spirit is saluted and greeted by the initiates present and will give readings, advice and cures to those who approach them for help. Many hours later in morning, the last song is sung, guests leave, and all the exhausted hounsis and houngans and manbos can go to sleep.

      On the individual’s household level, a Vodouisant or “sèvitè”/”serviteur” may have one or more tables set out for their ancestors and the spirit or spirits that they serve with pictures or statues of the spirits, perfumes, foods, and other things favored by their spirits. The most basic set up is just a white candle and a clear glass of water and perhaps flowers. On a particular spirit’s day, one lights a candle and says an Our Father and Hail Mary, salutes Papa Legba and asks him to open the gate, and then one salutes and speaks to the particular spirit like an elder family member. Ancestors are approached directly, without the mediating of Papa Legba, since they are said to be “in the blood”.

      [edit] Values and ethics
      The cultural values that Vodou embraces center around ideas of dishonor and greed – to the family and society, and to oneself. There is also a notion of relative propriety — and what is appropriate to someone with Dambala Wedo as their head may be different from someone with Ogou Feray as their head. For example, one spirit is very cool and the other is very hot. Coolness overall is valued, and so is the ability and inclination to protect oneself and one’s own if necessary. Love and support within the family of the Vodou society seems to be the most important consideration. Generosity in giving to the community and to the poor is also an important value. One’s blessings come through the community and there is the idea that one should be willing to give back to it in turn. There are no “solitaries” in Vodou, only people separated geographically from their elders and house. A person without a relationship of some kind with elders will not be practicing Vodou as it is understood in Haiti and among Haitians.

      In the view of some the Haitian Vodou religion is an ecstatic rather than a fertility based tradition and because of this, the religion has technically no prohibitions against gay men and lesbian women. Although homophobia is a world-wide phenomenon and may be prevalent in Vodou-practicing countries, a homosexual can practise Vodou with no doctrinal issues. In Haiti, for example, Vodou is normally the only spiritual outlet a homosexual will have.

      [edit] Orthodoxy and diversity
      There is a diversity of practice in Vodou across the country of Haiti and the Haitian diaspora. For instance in the north of Haiti the lave tèt (”head washing”) or kanzwe may be the only initiation, as it is in the Dominican Republic and Cuba, whereas in Port-au-Prince and the south they practice the kanzo rites with three grades of initiation – kanzo senp, si pwen, and asogwe – and the latter is the most familiar mode of practice outside of Haiti. Some lineages combine both, as Manbo Katherine Dunham reports from her personal experience in her book the Possessed Island.

      While the overall tendency in Vodou is very conservative in accord with its African roots, there is no singular, definitive form, only what is right in a particular house or lineage. Small details of service and the spirits served will vary from house to house, and information in books or on the internet therefore may seem contradictory. There is no central authority or “pope” in Haitian Vodou since “every manbo and houngan is the head of their own house”, as a popular saying in Haiti goes. Another consideration in terms of Haitian diversity are the many sects besides the Sèvi Gine in Haiti such as the Makaya, Rara, and other secret societies, each of which has its own distinct pantheon of spirits.

      [edit] Myths and misconceptions
      Vodou has come to be associated in the popular mind with the lore about Satanism, zombies and “voodoo dolls.” While there is evidence of zombie creation,[1] it is a minor phenomenon within rural Haitian culture and not a part of the Vodou religion as such. Such things fall under the auspices of the bokor or sorcerer rather than the priest of the Loa.

      The practice of sticking pins in dolls has history in European folk magic, but its exact origins are unclear. How it became known as a method of cursing an individual by some followers of what has come to be called New Orleans Voodoo, which is a local variant of hoodoo, is a mystery. Some speculate that it was used as a means of self defense to intimidate superstitious slave owners[citation needed]. This practice is not unique to New Orleans voodoo, however, and has as much basis in European-based magical devices such as the poppet and the nkisi or bocio of West and Central Africa.

      These are in fact power objects, what in Haiti would be referred to as pwen, rather than magical surrogates for an intended target of sorcery whether for boon or for bane. Such voodoo dolls are not a feature of Haitian religion, although dolls intended for tourists may be found in the Iron Market in Port au Prince. The practice became closely associated with the Vodou religions in the public mind through the vehicle of horror movies and popular novels.

      There is a practice in Haiti of nailing crude poppets with a discarded shoe on trees near the cemetery to act as messengers to the otherworld, which is very different in function from how poppets are portrayed as being used by voodoo worshippers in popular media and imagination, ie. for purposes of sympathetic magic towards another person. Another use of dolls in authentic Vodou practice is the incorporation of plastic doll babies in altars and objects used to represent or honor the spirits, or in pwen, which recalls the aforementioned use of bocio and nkisi figures in Africa.

      Although Voodoo is often associated with Satanism, Satan is primarily an Abrahamic figure and has not been incorporated in Voodoo tradition. When Mississippi Delta folksongs mix references to Voodoo and to Satan, what is being expressed is social pain such as from racism. Those who practice voodoo are not attempting to worship or invoke the blessings of a devil.

      Further adding to the dark reputation of Voodoo was the 1973 film adaptation of the thriller Live and Let Die, part of Ian Fleming’s widely successful James Bond series, which had been continually in print in both the English original and translations to numerous languages. Fleming’s depiction of the schemings of a fiendish Soviet agent using Voodoo to intimidate and control a vast network of submissive Black followers got an incomparably greater audience than any careful scholarly work on the subject of Voodoo. (See Mr. Big, Baron Samedi.)

      [edit] Notes
      ^ Davis, Wade. Passage of Darkness: The Ethnobiology of the Haitian Zombie.

      [edit] References
      Ajayi, Ade, J.F. & Espie , Ian, A Thousand Years of West African History, Great Britain, University of Ibadan, 1967.
      Alapini Julien, Le Petit Dahomeen, Grammaire. Vocabulaire, Lexique En Langue Du Dahomey, Avignon, Les Presses Universelles, 1955.
      Anderson, Jeffrey. 2005. Conjure In African American Society. Baton Rouge: Louisiana State University Press.
      Argyle, W.J., The Fon of Dahomey: A History and Ethnography of the Old Kingdom, Oxford, Oxford University Press, 1966.
      Chesi, Gert, Voodoo: Africa’s Secret Power, Austria, Perliner, 1980.
      Chireau, Yvonne. 2003. Black Magic: Religion and the African American Conjuring Tradition. Berkeley: University of California Press.
      Cosentino, Donald. 1995. “Imagine Heaven” in Sacred Arts of Haitian Vodou. Edited by Cosentino, Donald et al. Berkeley: University of California Press.
      Decalo, Samuel, Historical Dictionary of Dahomey, (People’s Republic of Benin), N.J., The Scarecrow Press, Inc., 1976.
      Ellis, A.B., The Ewe Speaking Peoples of the Slave Coast of West Africa, Chicago, Benin Press Ldt, 1965.
      Fandrich, Ina. 2005. The Mysterious Voodoo Queen, Marie Laveaux: A Study of Powerful Female Leadership in Nineteenth-Century New Orleans. New York: Routledge.
      Le Herisee, A. & Rivet, P., The Royanume d’Ardra et son evangelisation au XVIIIe siecle, Travaux et Memories de “‘Institut d’Enthnologie, no. 7, Paris, 1929.
      Long, Carolyn. 2001. Spiritual Merchants: Magic, Religion and Commerce. Knoxville: University of Tennessee Press.
      Saint-Lot, Marie-José Alcide. 2003. Vodou: A Sacred Theatre. Coconut Grove: Educa Vision, Inc.
      Tallant, Robert. “Reference materials on voodoo, folklore, spirituals, etc. 6-1 to 6-5 -Published references on folklore and spiritualism.” The Robert Tallant Papers. New Orleans Public Library. fiche 7 and 8, grids 1-22. Accessed 5 May 2005.
      Thornton, John K. 1988. “On the trail of Voodoo: African Christianity in Africa and the Americas” The Americas Vol: 44.3 Pp 261-278.
      Vanhee, Hein. 2002. “Central African Popular Christianity and the Making of Haitian Vodou Religion.” in Central Africans and Cultural Transformations in the American Diaspora Edited by: L. M. Heywood. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 243-64.
      Verger, Pierre Fátúmbí, Dieux d’Afrique: Culte des Orishas et Vodouns à l’ancienne Côte des Esclaves en Afrique et à Bahia, la Baie de Tous Les Saints au Brésil. 1954.
      Ward, Martha. 2004. Voodoo Queen: The Spirited Lives of Marie Laveau Jackson: University of Mississippi Press.
      Warren, Dennis, D., The Akan of Ghana, Accra, Pointer Limited, 1973. 9.

      Patti on May 5th, 2008 5:28 pm
      Note the Taino and Arawak Indians


      In Haitian Vodou or Sèvis Lwa or “Service to the Spirits” in Haitian Creole (kreyòl ayisyen), there are strong elements from the Bakongo of Central Africa and the Igbo and Yoruba of Nigeria, although many different people or nations of Africa have representation in the liturgy of the Sèvis Lwa. Islam has also been noted in some services. Among these other nations are the **** Taíno and Arawak Indians ****, venerated as the indigenous population (and hence, a form of ancestors) of the island now known as Hispaniola. A large and significant portion of Haitian Vodou most often overlooked by scholars, especially

      Patti on May 5th, 2008 5:41 pm

      So if anyone asks you if Arawaks

      practice spiritism…

      Now we know.

      I still haven’t found their calendar for 2005.


      richard on May 5th, 2008 10:30 pm

      Patti … You might enjoy reading the following book:

      “The Magic Island,” by William Seabrook. He was in some kind of vogue in the 1920s and 1930s, and among other things went to Haiti and witnessed voodoo rituals … or so he said.

      (He also went to Africa, met a tribe that still practiced cannibalism on occasion, and sampled human flesh … again, or so he said.)

      Patti on May 6th, 2008 1:26 pm


      I’m not interested in reading a book about voodoo rituals. I only want to show that the reason that so many Arawaks call themselves Catholic is because the Catholic churches allow their members to practice their heritage…

      even if it goes beyond what is Christian…

      right to the heart of Satanism.


      One thing that was interesting is that

      the Haitians say they don’t acknowledge


      How clever he is.


      Catholics, my ass….


      Patti on May 6th, 2008 1:29 pm


      Who was the priest that acted ashamed

      when he was approached by Dave?


      Who was the priest that died within

      weeks of Natalee’s death?

    151. crossbow on May 7th, 2008 10:14 am

      I believe that was Father Montoya;
      Apparently a robbery victim.

    152. crossbow on May 7th, 2008 10:33 am

      a followup if this is who you meant and wanted to know about.
      “Father Montoya was found in his bed under a blanket yesterday morning, with a pillow next to his head, his hands tied up and his mouth taped up, even though the latter is not confirmed nor denied. The police found several tracks that are now being analyzed. The assault itself had probably taken place in the evening. Shortly after the body was found, the police also found Montoya?s car on Seru Cocori and confiscated it for investigation of the tracks. The authorities released Montoya?s body after the autopsy. There will be a memorial service for him this coming Saturday. The body will afterwards be flown to his native country Colombia to be buried.”

    153. crossbow on May 7th, 2008 10:46 am

      BTW PATTI 150
      Here is a great place to spend a rainy weekend for research.


    154. Patti on May 7th, 2008 12:53 pm



      I didn’t mean to be rude to you.

      I just had a hunch that there was something

      you wanted us to know.

      Is this the same priest that Dave visited?

      Again, I thank you.


    155. crossbow on May 7th, 2008 1:01 pm

      the other priest whose name eludes me for the time being I believe was the pastor at St. Ana Church in Noord. BTW that is where Joran attended kindergarten.

    156. Patti on May 7th, 2008 5:26 pm

      Have you ever heard a rumor or a story about
      Joran drowning a little boy at a birthday party?

    157. crossbow on May 7th, 2008 6:55 pm

      patti: I didn’t think you were rude at all, anywhere.
      I felt that I may have come on that way when I suggested that url. You CAN spend a weekend going through everything.
      Didn’t hear about a little boy; heard rumors about prostitutes. Both unconfirmed as far as I know.
      It really bugs me about that priest’s name.
      I searched and searched and found it once… cannot locate it again.
      I’ll keep trying

    158. always 1 on May 7th, 2008 7:22 pm

      patti, Carpe just posted something in the Forum about all the deaths in Aruba, he could help you

    159. waterboy (Jerry) on May 7th, 2008 8:40 pm


      I was raised in West Texas. I know the oil field. I worked there as a young man. When I was 22, I left it forever. My Dad spent 42 years in the oil fields. My brother went to work for Shell when he was 18, and after 4 buy outs, still works as a pumper.


    160. Patti on May 7th, 2008 9:16 pm

      Always 1 – Thank you!



      I’m sure you’re right about it being the Priest from St. Anna church in Noord that Dave visited. Do we know where Father Montoya’s parish was located and what the final cause of death was… supposedly?!?!??

    161. Patti on May 7th, 2008 9:18 pm

      Hey, Jerry!

      Good to see you back.

    162. Patti on May 7th, 2008 9:20 pm


      You could always copy and post the list here.

    163. always 1 on May 7th, 2008 9:46 pm

      Patti, Im still looking for it for you…

    164. always 1 on May 7th, 2008 9:47 pm

      crossbow, your move

    165. crossbow on May 8th, 2008 12:25 pm

      Fr. Montoya.
      It was either Saveneta. Or Sabana Basora where they also found our buddy Rene who was almost decapitated.
      The good father was found with his mouth taped shut and his hands bound behind his back; my best guess from the coronor report would be suicide; just like “Pitbull” and RW Bensen. Yep definitely suicide. No obituary was ever listed for him. For that matter none for Rene either.
      Remember the priest from Noord was too busy to see Dave. Instead of the priest or his secretary responding to Dave; I found it highly suspicious that it was Dennis Jacobs that told Dave. By the time they could reschedule Dave I believe was scheduled to leave Aruba.

    166. Patti on May 10th, 2008 12:44 am


      You are a welth of knowledge.

      Do you think she was killed in a human sacrifice

      conducted by a priest, the priest, who in my

      opinion was the most high priest of the Arawak


      Do you think it’s possible that they really kill

      every month, a virgin for every tribe of every

      nation? But, more importantly, do you think that

      is why we are seeing so many boys and girls

      men and women missing in those Nations, which

      include Columbia, Venezuella and much of Southern

      South America?


      I do.

    167. crossbow on May 10th, 2008 11:04 am

      patti 166; I would be speculating. I know that St. John’s Day is a big festival of Fires.
      Shango; “light the fires”.
      With what is being uncovered everyday around the world anymore anything is believable and possible.
      There are few dirty secrets remaining.

    168. crossbow on May 10th, 2008 11:05 am

      BTW SM is the source of what I have learned.
      All because of Natalee.

    169. Star on July 19th, 2009 12:04 am

      OMG you guys act like NO one ever dissapeared or was murderd in the states!!!
      Remind me again how many
      unsolved crimes you have a day?

      thts right! but ohh I forgot the great USA can do no wrong…
      yet one of Aruba’s only ‘supposed’ crime if sooo shocking n unbelievable to you ignorant R.Ns

    Leave a Reply

    Support Scared Monkeys! make a donation.

    • NEWS (breaking news alerts or news tips)
    • Red (comments)
    • Dugga (technical issues)
    • Dana (radio show comments)
    • Klaasend (blog and forum issues)
    E-mail It