RSSAnother School Shooting … 6 Dead in Lancaster County, PA Amish School Shooting (Suspect: Charles Carl Roberts IV)
What is going on? Reports are that 6 people have been confirmed dead in an Amish School 
House shooting in Lancaster County, PA. What has been triggering this rash of school shootings where people feel that this is the proper outlet for their anger and frustrations? Earlier today there was another gun incident as well at a southern Nevada High School where schools went into lock down.
Coroner Reports 6 Dead in Pennsylvania Amish School Shooting
The police told FOX News that it was in fact a hostage situation and that the shooter is now killed. It’s not yet known whether the shooter is among the six deaths reported by the coroner. There were at least 12 people injured, along with the deaths, police said. Not motive is yet known. The school is in Paradise Township on Mine Road, in Bart — an Amish community within the township. There are a total of 27 students in Wolf Rock School, where the shooting took place. (FOX News)
Reports: At least 6 dead in Amish school shooting
The gunman then shot and killed himself, police said. The shooting took place at Wolf Rock School in Paradise, a school run by the Amish community with about 27 students in grades 1 through 8. (CNN)
UPDATE: ‘Revenge’ Possible Motive In Pa. Amish School Shooting
NICKEL MINES, Pa. — At least two female students and one slightly older female — who may have been a teacher’s aide — were shot and killed execution style in what police say may be a revenge killing for something that happened 20 years ago.
Roberts had wire ties and plastic flex cuff, which he used to begin tying the hostages feet together after they were lined up along a blackboard. He let go 15 male students, as well as one adult female who was pregnant. Three other non-student females with infants were also allowed to leave. One shotgun and one handgun was found next to the suspect when police entered the building. “It seems as though he wanted to attack young, female victims,” Miller said. (FOX News)
UPDATE II: Killer hid dark secrets for years
LANCASTER COUNTY, PA – The portrait of Charles Carl Roberts IV painted by his family and neighbors is that of a devoted husband who could be seen kicking the soccer ball with his three kids and laughing as they jumped on a backyard trampoline.
But the suicide notes he scribbled before shooting 10 Amish girls Monday portray a much darker personality — that of a man tortured by the stillborn death of his first child, and someone secretly fixated by a mysterious, long-held grudge.
“In one note he references an incident that occurred 20 years ago and suggests that incident was a factor in his actions,” Lancaster County District Attorney Donald Totaro said today. (Lancaster on-line)
Posted October 2, 2006 by Scared Monkeys Bizarre, Charles Carl Roberts IV, Child Welfare, Crime | 84 comments |
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84 Responses to “Another School Shooting … 6 Dead in Lancaster County, PA Amish School Shooting (Suspect: Charles Carl Roberts IV)”
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I am sorry this is gonna be harsh. What the hell is going on here. Our children are not safe in schools or in their homes. I am starting to wonder is there is massive interbreeding going on. These kooks are running rampant.
You rarely see this kind of behavior in the animal kingdom. Animals do not kill for the sake of killing.
I understand these girls were from the age of 6-12 yrs old.
Good Lord. Get these bastards out of society. Enuff Now.
be careful what you say, mis ue, you’ll ruffle the feathers of the a.c.l.u., and they’ll fleece their financial supporters out of a couple more million dollars and come after you like stink on jvds.
dennisintn
Dennis
While the Aclu is protecting the rights of criminals.
Who is protecting the children?
nobody. evidently the criminals and mental defectives are the only people that have advocates. not to mention that if you tried to protect an innocent woman or child, you could get 20 years to life for it.
dennisintn
MISS-u, I agree with you on this one. What the HELL is going on. Where can we go to be safe ????????????
This is just unheardof…..I know that is not a whole word, but I am at odds as to what to say here. We as parents, send our kids to school every day and hardly ever think of this sort of terror. NO MORE……ANY SCHOOL in any region can be a target. Damn shame….we need security at ALL schools in the USA and I would suspect that in the near future there should be metal detectors at all entrance doors of schools and many more helpful things to control this problem. UNREAL….I did see something on tv this am, forget where, exactly, but it said something about drug testing in homes by parents and how that is an invasion of privacy for children. (I know this has nothing to do w/ school shoothings, but I need to vent)…….HELLOOOOO…invasion of privacy??? YOU ARE MY CHILD. I am no longer allowed by law to discipline you in the way I feel appropriate, so now they are telling me I have NO RIGHTS as a parent.
AND WE WONDER WHY SHIT LIKE THIS HAPPENS??????????? HELLOOOOO!! Sorry….I have much more to say, but will step back for a few and breatheeeeee. UGHHHHHHH!
You are so right Nut44x4, back in my day my mother would have whipped my ass and ask questions later, and to have told her she couldn’t see what I had in my room or test me for drugs, I feel sorry for the person who would have told her that! That’s the problem now everyone hallows privacy and rights! Some of these kids now days don’t need rights because they haven’t had the risen they need and their running wild! There is no excuse I had a bad day so I shot the school up! What are these people thinking?!
Charles Croes responded to my question to clarify… (I do not know how to register to the forum -maybe someone could PLEASE email and tell me)
From: Fastphones Aruba
[Add to Address Book]
To: {{removed your email address}}
Subject: Re: Just wondering…
Date: Monday, October 02, 2006 2:36:55 PM [View Source]
Jennifer,
Sure I will – point by point and as honest as I can make it.
be well
charles
> WELL NATALEE DID NOT GET A PHONE CALL OF FROM ARUBA ………. (Charles
response) I don’t know that.
>
> SO WHY WAS CHARLES CROES INVITED THAT NIGHT BETH ARRIVED … (charles
response) It was thought that a cell phone was rented and we are the largest
such company on the island. Aside from that, once Beth spoke to me, it was
impossible to say no to a grieving mother.
>
> WHAT PHONE CALL DID HE SAY THEY LISTENED TOO ………. (charles response) A
young boy that is a friend of NH received a call that was recorded on an answer
machine. There was some thought that this call might have to do with NH.
Kindly do not ask me to elaborate beyond this since I have signed a NDA
agreement with two different police departments to not discuss this further.
That said, a little bit of detective work will give you the answers. It is
just that I cannot.
> SEEMS CHARLES CROES WAS THROWN INTO THE FRAY AS A SPY ……….. (Charles
response) Occasionally, an incipid remark is made. One that is as groundless
as it is thoughtless. This last one qualifies for that category.
Quoting {{removed your email address}}:
> People are wondering something. Can you explain and help clear things up?
> thanks.
>
Â
__________________
SM: On the front page of SM, in the upper right side there is a link to email Red and Tom. Email Red and ask to be admitted into the forum. Let him know what nickname you want to use in the forum. He’ll get to it ASAP (klaasend)
Well, we’ve taken God out of the schools, and put “political correctness” in its place.
As parents, we face possibility of abuse charges for simply spanking our kids in public…a place they are apt to act up to get their way!
When they are “overactive” (something my parents took care of by making me run around the house about 20 times, leterally!!) they are given a pill and set in front of a violent video game.
I don’t even know where to stop. Time we take our society back.
Hell, don’t worry! The Mexicans will do it for us. Notice that Mexico says the newly approved boarder fence will “harm relations”. WHAT!?
Who CARES!!! Keep their nasty garbage out of our country. This is not a joke. They are here for what they can get, NOT to do anything FOR the USA (such as learning English or paying taxes). I grew up in Tampa. We had the Mexicans AND the Cubans (who are more violent) to deal with.
I’m telling you people, it’s going to come down to fighting for our lives, and way of life, in the streets. I’m ready. Are you?
Brenda
There are so many comparisons to Iraq and Afghanastan and how the deadly news is reported day and night after day and night (especially on TV). I blame this on continued bombardment of our minds about the “senseless killing” taking place overseas.
This time I don’t think we blame it on video games.
brenda what tf does Mexican’s have to do with this?????
somehow natalie h. got into this
somehow the aclu got into this
Amen Brenda
WTF is going on? It seems as if this happens every month, like a period!
The more you think about it; you realize this only happens in the US. How come?
Wouldn’t it be better if not just everyone could buy a gun on the streetcorner?
Didn’t a school shooting just happen in Montreal a few weeks ago? This craziness does cross international boundaries.
Today’s events are extremely tragic and heartbreaking.
Here in Las Vegas, we have armed school police. They patrol the school campus daily and watch for anything suspicious. I am originally from Western PA, and I can remember YEARS ago, the notion of police officers in schools. Many parents in my area were against it. They didn’t want a police officer telling their kid what to do. The idea was dropped. It may be a sign of the times where we will HAVE to do this in every part of the country. We Americans are just too trusting. WE all need to open our eyes and be involved with safety. That loner who stands in the corner talking to himself can no longer be ignored. We can no longer say ‘its not my problem’. It is becoming everyones problem.
Somethings I heard on local news.
The criminal is Charles Carl Roberts 31-33yrs old. Milkman, lived ~5miles from that 1 room school of all Amish children. He told someone he was getting revenge for something that happened to him 20yrs ago.
He walked into the school, made the children line up against the wall dismissed the males, teachers and teachers aid. He kept only the female students ranging in age 8-13.
This monster was found dead when the police entered the school, unfortunately he killed himself after he killed and injured the young female students.
If I was 11 years old where would I want to go to school. Somewhere where they teach gambling OR somewhere where you could be MURDERED. HMMMMMMMMMMMM
My heart is breaking for all these families. In a school where no one would have ever thought this would happen. These children did not even know about such things. They did not listen to radio or Tv. I feel bad also for the wife and children of the shooter.
I do not think this is a USA problem. I think it is world wide. In some countries children are taught at a young age to hate.
Yes I do think our own society has became to permissive. I also believe we do need God back in the schools. Also children should be taught the Golden rule. This would help so much. I also believe when a child is teased alot and the school knows it they should put a stop to it. JMHO
I find it even sadder at an Amish school. These folks have tried hard not to ingest American media and all the junk that comes with it.
Sam you are SOOOOOOOOOo Right. Kids are taught at an early age to HATE. There is MUCH HATE on this board. I’m sure they were taught that at an early age !!!
One really has to wonder about these two nuts in PA and CO that specifically targeted young girls.
In this case according to his email for something that happened to him 20 years prior? What when he was 12? So the guy is married and has a child and he still thinks that something that happened 20 years prior is so terrible?
GEEZ … Red
I agree that we need prayer and the plede in school..”In God We Trust”! And the people that are protesting it..let them leave and move to another state or better yet..Another planet.
Betty – Our public schools are for all children, whether they are Catholic, Baptist, Quaker, Amish, atheist, Buddhist, Jewish, agnostic, etc.. The schools are supported by all taxpayers, and therefore should be free of religious observances. It is the duty of parents and churches to instill religious beliefs. Entire generations of Americans have grown up to be law-abiding citizens without ever once reciting a prayer in school. If prayer is the answer, why are our jails and prisons overflowing with born-agains?
I read this morning (Tuesday) that a fourth girl has just died of her wounds in the Amish shooting. Apparently the original estimate of six (seen in the headline to this article) was wrong; that’s about the only good note.
I look at the photo of that one-room schoolhouse, a kind of American icon of a simpler era, set in the midst of the changing autumn foliage under a clear sky.
A beautiful day to go to school. A beautiful day to be alive.
A beautiful day to die a senseless death.
Our collective hearts are overflowing with grief. The senselessness of this leaves us all bewildered and numb.
Think of it: even school shootings are losing their ability to shock us. Not that we don’t feel it’s horrible, but no longer do we feel that it is an INCONCEIVABLE event.
I wish I had an answer. I don’t even know the right questions to ask.
All these (men) cowards who go into schools and homes to get young women. Notice that they are again targeting the young women in a enviroment that offer little or no protection. I refuse to call them men,men protect, these are not men they preditors (big wusses) Look what these freaks are doing to our families. At the least he took his own life, sparing the victims families from going to courts and reliving this day over and over.
Men what are we going to do, look what is happening to your families?
Couple of things I would like to know.
One, it was mentioned that he was home-schooled. Was this from day one or 20 years ago that something may have happened where he was kicked out of school, hence the “grudge”.
Two, I have read the events of Columbine, before that the Arkansas school shooting etc., and in the beggining there was always a mention of the prescription medications that the offenders were administered. I have a healthy DISTRUST of these types of meds as taking these meds if really you do not require them can have some dire consequences as we have witnessed lo these many years.
This particular cretin may not have been among the medicated and twisted elite but from what I have heard he was an everyday “normal” guy until a few weeks ago. An autopsy, if not doctored up, will detect if anything was amiss.
Don’t know, but we better clean our house before thinking or worrying about the travails of other countries.
MISS-u, Haven’t you heard of women’s lib ???? Why do you need a man to protect you ???
Kelmal
Men need to protect their daughters and sons, either by force or votes.
Get it old lady
Charles Roberts was emotionally disturbed and angry, over-the-top angry. Don’t confuse those emotions with mental illness. He knew exactly what he was going to do and how he was going to do it. He’s a sorry excuse of a human being that didn’t have the guts to confront whoever did whatever to him 20 years ago. It’s been reported Roberts had been holding a “grudge” ever since. Supposedly whatever happened so long ago festered until he HAD to drop his kids off at their bus stop and then he HAD to walk to the school house and he HAD to take with him a not so small arsenal (at least 600 rounds of ammo) and he HAD to separate the girls from the boys and he HAD to let the boys go and he HAD to tie young, innocent little girls up and have them face the wall and he HAD to barricade the door and he HAD to shoot 10 people.
BS, BS, BS…Charles Roberts is a bully, blaming everything that went wrong in his life on someone else. One of those “it’s not my fault” types. He’s also a coward and a piece of crap. He went to the elementary school to take lives – the lives of innocent children he could bully and definitely scare thus empowering him. The evil man died happy.
I hope he never sees the face of God.
GHASTLY STORY
Truly ghastly.
As to “school shootings”: the events in Colorado and Pennsylvania are particularly heinous, and very different from previous episodes. The murderers were not “students”.
They were outsiders, and adult men, who targted young school girls for abuse and slaughter. And purposefully attacked these girls when they were gathered as a group in a place of learning, where they are supposedly “safe.”
Unlike other episodes, where aggrieved fellow students kill, these are adult crimes, perpetrated by sick people. The events in Colorado and Pennsylvania are akin to machine-gunning the infant ward at a hospital. Who could do, or even THINK OF DOING, such a thing?
Just ghastly.
.
Hey Kelmal read these posts, see where these people are coming, from….. unlike your group…no one is defending the creep(s) who do the crimes. We call it like we see it
wrong, wrong, wrong.
I have a man to protect me. His name is Colt Trooper.
Brenda
MISS-u, YEP and there are just as many in the USA as anywhere else. !!!!!!!!!!!
SHOOTER “LOST” A DAUGHTER
Police reports now suggesting that Pennsylvania school girl murderer had “lost a daughter” about three years ago, and are speculating this was a factor in this case.
Sad.
Evidently unable to contain his rage at the loss of his beloved child, whom he couldn’t help and aid.
Instructive, too. The agony felt by parents who lose a child never really ends, though most find ways to heal and move forward. Haunting that this sad story circles back to where this thread and blog really started: w/ Natalee Holloway.
.
para2legal:
I think you right on target, Roberts was a ‘not my fault’ type. Unfortunately, our society is breading those types at an unbelievable rate. Thanks to the likes of the ACLU and the last 50 years of ‘its society’s fault you aren’t (insert any of the following): ‘ popular, rich, smart, good looking, educated, have the right job, right new gadget, etc. etc.
It is hard to believe that our society has degenerated from a society that produces a generation which fought and won a world war largely because it was the right thing to do for the world, regardless of the personal scarifies it cost. To a generation that produces so many unstable, self centered creatures the likes of Charles Roberts. I imagine when and if it ever comes to light why Roberts focused on the Amish girls, it turn out that his itty bitty pathetic ego was damage when his was 12 or so when some little girl didn’t like him. Same with the human waste in Colorado.
thank god you got a gun brenda!!now you’re safe!!LOL!!!!mabey your kids can take it to school for”show and tell”and mabey even get a couple of rounds off before lunch {{{{EDIT … uncalled for}}}
Â
Fitting name
Dutch hog, are you a relative to the Aruban pigs?
So you lose a daughter and you go kill in cold blood other peoples little girls.
Reminds me ok, if I can’t have one no-one can? He did the victims families a favor by killing himself.
Most normal people who suffer the loss of a child are propelled to protect children. Lets see, John Walsh, Klass, and Beth Holloway just to name a few.
But you don’t take someone elses child.
Dutch, It is SAD that our kids can’t even go to school and be safe. This can NOT happen in Detroit. To get into the schools you have to go thru a metal detector. What a country !!
There is an unconfirmed report on the news that this guy left a note to his wife that he had sexually abused young girls who were relatives years ago and he was having dreams about doing it again, also the unconfirm report is that he had intimate lubricant and hand cuffs/ties in his person when the police found him?
SM any clue?
Ok i just watched ther news conference on this POS….he molested 3 & 4 yr old relatives & been dreaming & thinking her wanted to do it again. The ONLY good thing in this horrific criminal act is that he’s DEAD. God forgives but i refuse to believe God forgives those that hurt innocent children in this way.
My heart really goes out to his wife & little girls….good god he has all but ruined his own children’s lives.
Then you have Foley standing there while the president signs into law the national data base for missing & exploited children. Nothing is going to happen to him criminally which is ashame, i wish we could run that bastard out of this country on a rail, expell his ass out this country.
We are tired of innocent children being hurt & i for one would not a conviction happen should i be on a jury trial where someone is being prosecuted for killing a child rapist murderer.
kelmuk you are so f’n stupid, no one ever said we don’t have bad people here. The only good thing about you’re pathetic ass being on this board all the time is that it shows you are to afraid to show your ugly face outside your house.
moons, Smoke some dope lately ????????
Dear #36…Dutchhog,
Oh my, you are an ignorant one! A socialist-democrap no doubt. The only thing smaller than your brain is your IQ.
Trust me, my children (both grown now you meat-head) would never have brought a gun to school. I lost 2 relatives who were police officers in the line of duty (one on my husband’s side, one on my side) and used to be a uniformed officer myself. So you can LOL yourself to death for all I care.
Brenda
P.S. How many people on this board feel a woman should not carry a weapon to protect herself?
MAYBE Dutchhog is really JVS trolling again!! You know how he wants all women vulnerable and easy to violate.
Brenda
Dear YOYO muffin
Understand that those “born-again” Christians who went to jail are no more “born-again” than the man in the moon! They are what are commonly referred to as “wolves in sheep’s clothing”.
I do admit they use the term to gain sympathy, but the proof is in the pudding so to speak. Show me the “fruits” of their lives, and we can easily determine what kind of tree produced it!
:>) Brenda
brenda, I don’t think ANYONE should carry a weapon.
I will carry one until I die, or I’m killed and they are all taken from me.
My Constitutional right while I’m drawing breath.
If you choose not to, that’s fine. It is a choice just like driving, going to work, abortion, drinking, drug use, lying or bein honest…etc. It’s a choice I don’t take lightly.
In the 20+ years I’ve carried, there has only been the need to brandish it once. Had 2 trespassers come out of the woods WITH rifles at dusk and they were on my back porch looking in the window. When I went outside to ask what they were doing, they refused to answer and went to the bedroom window and looked in.
Well, that was enough for me and I leveled a .270 rifle at them from the front porch as they came around the house. Found out they were drunk and curious…but they left VERY quickly. No need to shoot anyone as I made my point clearly.
Keep in mind I had a 15 year old daughter inside at the time 7 yrs ago. I’d GLADLY have shot both of them before letting them touch her. Fortunately, the situation turned out OK and they actually came back when my husband was home and appologized for scaring me. (Felt like I was going to have a heart attack and crap my pants at the same time. It is SCARY!)
They were both at our house just last month as we’re all friends now. The older man’s name is Dallas and he says he just loves me because I’m “his kind of woman”. Weird, but true!
I 100% seriously hope I never have to use it on a human being. Also, my husband and I own 300 acres of mountain land. There are bear, cougar, coyote, bobcat, wild dogs, rattle snakes…need I go on? Run across a mother bear with cubs in the woods and you’ll change your mind about carrying a weapon! (A shot into the ground scared them all off :>)
Brenda
In Detroit everyone carries a gun. In 2005 we had 500 murders. Right across the Detroit river is Windsor Canada. They have gun control and they only had 3 murders in 2005.
Brenda T.; Can I just say you have crystallized my thoughts eloquently!! Thank you! Maybe if Kelmal/Gretamal would spread more of that love and understanding around Detroit, there wouldn’t have been 500 murders. It is so typical of the left to want to disarm law-abiding citizens every time they hear of some nut case shooting up a school full of innocent children. They cannot be bothered with knowing how many murders, assaults, and rapes of innocent people are prevented by law-abiding citizens owning a weapon for self-defense. If somebody wants to kill you, they can do it by slitting your throat, beating your skull in with a baseball bat, or shoving you off a bridge. Wackos who shoot up schools should not be allowed to own a weapon, but liberals are too thick to understand that a criminal will ALWAYS be able to get his hands on a gun, and if law-abiding citizens are forced to surrender theirs, how can they defend themselves against these thugs? In any of these recent shootings, innocent lives might have been saved with one well-placed shot between the eyes of these sick, perverted, miserable excuses for human beings. I will always say I would rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6 anyday.
For those who think the shootings are exclusive
to the The Evil Empire – The US
Pardon me while I laugh you off of the thread.
In a free society – any free society
evil festering flea bags like this swackin’ Uni-Loser…
they will find ways to do these evil things. They need
to be hunted down quickly and deactivated.
————-
Pray to whomever you pray to that
this scuzzo did not just create 10 more people who will
continue the chain and seek revenge for what he did in 20 years on other innocent people!!!
BREAK THE CHAINS, RIGHT?
————-
I’d like to see the studies of just how modern day
instant news and media coverage plays a role in
spreading those evil thoughts in minutes what used to take
months and years.
Have you ever noticed
one event seems to fuel another and another. and they start
to fall like dominos. Sometimes it happens
on a seemingly subliminal level that these perps
maybe completely unaware of. Kinda like sleep walking
time-bomb zombies!!!
-note- I am not saying the news is to blame for some of
these things. it is in fact news, it should be reported.
the way in which it is reported, we could slice
that up every which way from Sunday. huh?
Roberts story is getting weirder and weirder. Seems the event that happened 20 years ago was HE molested younger relatives. He starts having these urges again? Sex lubricant was found by the police. Without a doubt if the police had not arrived when they did, the girls would have been raped. What a disgusting pervert (I can’t call him a human being). Was he also molesting his daughter? As days pass we’ll hear more about his dark side.
Carpe says: “Pray to whomever you pray to that
this scuzzo did not just create 10 more people who will
continue the chain and seek revenge for what he did in 20 years on other innocent people!!!
BREAK THE CHAINS, RIGHT?”
How true this is. Sexual abuse can be a vicious cycle. Very Sad, but so true.
I have a problem with all the information that our media divulges. They really did not have to list the items that this sick man had (lubricants, ties,etc.). It gives other potential psychos ideas to put into their “plans”. The media talks too much!!!
T
RamLady,
Thanks. Glad to know I’m not alone.
Brenda
dear brenda T i’am sorry for your family members who got killed in the line of duty,i never ment any disrespect to the police and i never ment THEY shouln’t carry guns,but you see i’am dutch and we are not used to policeofficers getting shot in the line of duty so therefore i’am sorry,we in holland aren’t used to anyone getting shot,most all the people who get shot overhere are criminals who get shot by there colleagues(problem solving itself).politicly i’am a(as you call them in the US)lefty!,but i also belong to a gunclub WHAT!!! thats right!!but i’am not waving my 357 around screaming THEY’RE COMMING TO GET ME!!having a gun out of the safe in my house gets me in prison for four years in holland!!it are the rules in america for owning and handling a gun i got a problem with!there to damn easy!and remember i’am dutch we live here and now,and we don’t care about a piece of paper that’s been written over 200 jears ago by some fruit in a wig if we don’t like something we vote to get it changed, or vote to keep it.remember in holland cops don’t get shot!and if you’re pro NRA at least get another spokesman i mean,that ben hur guy?is he all there or what? and miss underestimated,a HOG is a harley davidson,you know!the motorcycle!i’am not related to the aruban pigs,you’re american i think? does that mean that you’re relatad to jeffrey dahmer or ted bundy? but i do have friends living in aruba and they are beautifull people!!just beacause of some rotten apples doesn’t mean everybody on the whole island is like that,i’am sure my friends are as sick about it as you are!
dutchhog/kelmal/amsterdamned/johnm/amsterdam law: How can you be so transparent and yet so FOS at the same time????? Amazing!!!!!! Seeing as how you aren’t allowed to take your gun out of the safe in your home, you must be a sight to see; riding on your Harley with a gun safe strapped to your back with your 357 inside, on your way to the “gun club.” Yeah right. And I’m Mary Poppins. Let me guess: would that be the “Holland Gun Club?” LOL!!!!!
i carry the unloaded guns in a special case which is locked and only allowed in the trunk of my car when i go to the club,when i take it out and put it loose in my car…like i said 4 years!!permit or not! and i’ve been to american gunclubs and they have been here to ,and you know what?,there not very good!well let’s be honest!they couln’t hit a barn if they were standing in it!BUT THAT WASN’T THE POINT modern times take for modern measures!there is nothing wrong with tightening guncontrol, even a little!so you can weed out the nuts! or mabey you can have everybody in the us thinkin’ happy thoughts and most of there problems will dissapear!you’re ”mary poppins” you make it happen!(there is a little truth in there somewhere)
Einstein, you know very well, we have laws in most states that require you to have a firearm unloaded in a vehicle and out of easy reach, either in a case or a gun rack. We already have laws for tightening gun control; but many times they are not enforced. So the anti-gun crowd starts yelling MORE gun control. Nobody in their right mind believes a nut like those who shoot up schools should be allowed to own a gun. Since you are clairvoyant, how would you keep a gun out of the hands of someone such as this latest freak in PA who shot those Amish little girls? He had no criminal record that would prevent him from owning a gun. The far left would like to confiscate ALL guns from everybody, but the only effect this would have is to disarm law-abiding citizens and leave them powerless to protect themselves and their families. A criminal or a crazed lunatic bent on killing someone or himself will ALWAYS be able to get his hands on a weapon due to the black market. Drugs are illegal too, but that fact does not stop people who want to use drugs from getting them. BTW, since you are not allowed to use a gun for self-defense in Holland, why on earth would you have a reason for owning a gun and visiting a gun club to become proficient in using it? It’s not going to do you much good for it to even be in your house since you must keep it locked and unloaded at all times. That will really scare away potential burglars, rapists, and murderers who want to harm you or your family.
ramlady you’re absolutly right i’am no clairvoyant!but i’am close!if you don’t keep your guns in a safe what do you think? the burglers will leave them? HELL NO!its the first thing they go for and then(in my case)there are 4 more handguns in the hands of criminals,you do know that burglers come when you’re not at home,right?get a rottweiler(not kidding)cute for the boss but a bitch for a burglar,and don’t lock it in a run at night!i know people who do that(smart).and about keeping a gun in your car,what if the car gets stolen or you get jacked(no,you wont have time to get it!)another gun in the hands of a criminal!now i don’t want to make you more paranoid then you already are,but confronted with a burgler,rapist or murderer do you think you have time to get your weapon?i doubt it!you can ask ”wait i’am goin to get my gun!”i sincerely hope that you have that time!but chances are you don’t!the gun in your house is an illusion of safety!it’s right up there with getting the big knife out of the kitchen!but whatever makes you FEEL safe.you can’t keep a gun handy and keep it from kids at the same time it’s impossible!and if you do have a gun you should visit a gunclub regularly,if you don’t you will miss at 5 ft,and under stress forget about it!the bullet ends up in the wall and the gun in the perp’s hands.anyway!!it IS a skill!it CAN be a fun sport you know,a lot of people don’t see it but i don’t see the fun in chess or fishing,whatever floats your boat,right!? what can we do against animals like roberts? i don’t think even einstein would have an answer to that!you don’t want all teachers armed in front of the class do you?it makes me sad,angry and powerless.specially the last one is hard to accept.POWERLESS these people will always strike where people can’t defend themself,and to be honest i don’t think you can defend yourself against these people!how disturbing that may be!calling him an animal is an insult to all animals!
DHog, first, just a quick note: You and I both know you are not in Holland. My research tells me that in Holland, only sporting guns are legal to own, and then only by members of a gun club. Police and military personnel are allowed to own guns other than sporting guns. That .357 you mentioned is NOT a sporting gun, it is a self-defense gun. Self-defense is not a legitimate reason for owning a gun in Holland, unlike in the U.S. Did you neglect to mention that you were in the police or military??
Second, I never said anyone should leave their guns out in the open for children or burglars to find. Of course they should be locked away safely unloaded. However, your perception that a person will not be able to get to their gun when faced with an intruder does not hold true in every situation. Locked away safely does not have to mean it takes you 5 minutes to get to the gun while you ask the burglar to wait for you. Although more expensive, there are locks available for safes now that can recognize your fingerprint and open quickly for you and you only. This could be invaluable when trying to get to your gun in a hurry rather than trying to remember the combination or where you hid the key from the kids. Many times a person will be made aware of someone prowling around outside the house and will have time to get to their gun and call 911. If by chance the burglar gets into the house before the police get there, the burglar/rapist/murderer is going to get a big surprise. You can call me paranoid if you like; but I am just being aware, alert, and prepared. At least I know I have a fighting chance with a gun. I am a petite female and certainly no match physically against a large man with who knows what motive.
And FYI, I am not some crazy pistol-packing chick with no clue how to use a gun. My father was a police captain for 25 years, and I grew up learning to respect firearms. I was always taught from an early age guns are not toys. My father always scored in the “expert” level in handgun shooting. After he was killed (not in the line of duty) by a hit-and-run driver while vacationing in Vegas, the department he worked for named their police firing range in honor of him. I regret that I did not learn my actual shooting skills from him, but I was never really interested while I was growing up. My husband was raised on a farm out in the country and grew up enjoying the outdoors which included fishing and hunting, and his father taught him gun safety from an early age. He regularly practiced target shooting with .22s, pistols, high-powered deer rifles, shotguns, and muzzleloaders and became expert at all of them including a compound bow. Believe it or not, during squirrel-hunting season, the small rural high school he attended allowed students who drove to bring their .22 rifles to school as long as they were left in the trunk of their car and not taken out on school property. This was completely unheard of in the larger, non-rural school I attended just 30 miles away. And no, I am not talking about the 1800s. I’m not that old!! This was as recent as the late seventies and early eighties. Nobody ever worried that someone would bring a gun to school and start killing students and teachers. It just did not happen then. I only became interested in shooting after I married, and I learned safety and proper technique from my husband just as he learned from his father. Since we both go out-of-state on hunting trips sometimes, we both have completed hunter education requirements as well, with both of us obtaining perfect scores on the written tests, and I highly recommend that every person who owns a gun, whether or not they use it for hunting, should take these courses. It is very little about actual hunting and more about gun safety. I realize every person who owns a gun may not be nearly as safety-conscious as we are, but they certainly need to be. We are very well aware that safety is THE MOST important thing to remember at all times and to ALWAYS treat any gun as if it is loaded, to never point a gun at anything you don’t intend to shoot, to always be aware of where that bullet is going to go, etc., etc. We are also very aware that being proficient with a gun, whether it is a handgun, a shotgun, a rifle, or whatever, requires practice and proper technique as well as always observing safety precautions. My husband is VERY particular about who he will and will not hunt with, especially bird hunting (to avoid any Dick Cheney incidents!!). He must feel that I am safe or he would not hunt with me. Since we have access to plenty of land where we can safely practice shooting, we do not have a need to belong to a gun club.
Perhaps you don’t know anyone who was able to prevent themselves from becoming a victim of crime because they had a gun, but I do. One of my husband’s co-workers was walking with his wife and daughter one night in the downtown area where a festival was going on. Suddenly, a guy comes up to them waving a knife in their faces and demands he give him his wallet, watch, rings, and his wife and daughter’s jewelry. Instead of producing his wallet for this thug, he instead presented him with the barrel of a pistol aimed right between the guy’s eyes. Nobody was shot, thank goodness, but the guy threw the knife down and started running backwards very fast while apologizing and begging not to be shot. Also, I have heard of countless incidents in which people were able to thwart an intruder just by making it known that a gun was waiting for them on the other side. The sound of a pump shotgun pumping a shell into the barrel would be enough for most intruders to rethink their choice of victims. A large, growling dog with a mean bark certainly doesn’t hurt either. I happen to have two who stay indoors, and there is not much that goes on around the house that they don’t know about. Granted, a person could still become a crime victim if they are caught completely off-guard and are suddenly face-to-face with a stranger standing in the middle of the room. In situations like that, it won’t matter if you have a safe full of guns. Thankfully, most criminals are stupid and make mistakes, and if you are aware and prepared, you at least have a fighting chance.
As to what needs to be done today to make our schools safer, I wish there was a simple answer. Many schools already have armed security guards and metal detectors, and still, it does not always prevent these terrible things from happening. I heard on the news, the security guard who was supposed to be on duty at the recent school shooting in Colorado was not even present. And concerning the crazy freak who cruelly murdered those innocent little Amish girls in PA, how could anyone have prevented this? It was a one-room school in a rural area so there was no security. I’m sure they never felt the need in such a peaceful place. According to family members, no one suspected Roberts of being capable of something so heinous and had absolutely no clue that he would ever do something like that. It is truly horrifying, and this case in particular brings tears to my eyes every time I think about. Even right now. The fact that these little girls were so young and vulnerable and had no idea I’m sure that any human being could be so cruel I guess is why this seems so particularly heartbreaking to me. I have no clue how this could have been prevented; I only know that this animal chose the most vulnerable and innocent of any one he could have chosen to victimize. I wish I had answers, but I simply don’t. More than anything, this shows how far we have slipped as a society just in the last 25 years. These things never happened when I was in school. There were a lot of guns around then too, but what we have now IMO is a coarsening of society that we did not have when I was a kid.
As much as the anti-gun crowd wants to believe that guns kill people, I still say it is not the gun that takes itself out of the safe, loads itself, looks for a victim, aims at a victim, and pulls its own trigger. The gun cannot kill anyone by itself. Somebody has to make the decision to point it and pull the trigger. It is the sick person who killed someone by USING a gun to do it. The gun itself is not evil. The shooter who murdered the innocent person is evil. Using the same logic that the anti-gunners use, I could say that my pencil causes misspelled words. In countries where guns are not allowed for self-defense, the most commonly used murder weapon is often a knife, but why is it that you don’t hear people screaming let’s outlaw all knives because a person with intent to kill can use a knife to accomplish their goal. They could also use a baseball bat, a golf club a 2×4, or countless other items as well. I don’t believe arming teachers is the answer either. Not all teachers would want that responsibility if a student was able to wrestle a gun away from a teacher and went on a killing spree in the school. Plus, as I said before, no one has any business with a gun if they are not properly trained and proficient at using it. We can have air marshalls on airplanes, but a similar concept would be impossible in every classroom in every school in the country. It just would not work. I see this as a societal problem that there are no easy fixes for. Kids today are bombarded with violent TV shows, movies, video games, music, and on and on and on. Many kids live in single-parent homes where there may be little or no parental guidance and supervision. There is a general cheapening of human life IMO. Particularly disgusting and disturbing to me are these video games where the shooter gets extra points for shooting a cop. Not only is there no respect for authority; now the object is to kill anyone in authority. Shooting up a school and then blowing your head off is like the ultimate video game to many of these kids who have been bombarded with violent images and songs their entire lives, and IMO many of them are becoming sociopaths. The liberal, permissive attitude some parents have about child-rearing results in kids with no conscience, no concept of right and wrong, no ability to feel empathy for other people, and no standards for acceptable behaviour. There are too many parents who are shirking their responsibility and are letting their kids raise themselves and failing miserably. As for the sick adults resposible for the two most recent school shootings, all I can say is these people must be soulless and heartless to do anything as mindless as this. They have sick minds and have no problem carrying out their sick, desperate acts on the most innocent and vulnerable in our society. Sorry this post is so long, but I just had to vent a little. It is still my opinion that LAW-ABIDING CITIZENS have the constitutional right to protect themselves with deadly force if need be, but they also have the OBLIGATION to be knowledgeable, safety-conscious, and proficient as well. And yes you are correct; calling these sick people animals IS an insult to all animals. Humans are capable of far more cruelty than any animal.
Dear Dutchhog,
I do not waive my gun. It’s called “brandishing” in America and is illegal. You need to understand alot more about our country before you start to slam us. I also always carry unloaded when it’s in my car and not on my person. It’s called “common sense” over here.
The USA is a country of free men and women. I DO care about that piece of paper written by a bunch of men in wigs because it’s what I believe. And yes, I’ll vote to KEEP it this way here and defend it with my life. Not only have I lost 2 officers in my family. I’ve lost relatives (some before I was born) to WW1, WW2 (the uncle who died in Europe was buried over there), Korean conflict. AND…the first relative to come here was in 1775 and fought AGAINST England in the Revolutionary War. (George McDonough if you are interested. From Ohio.)
I think I have just a little, bit better grip on what America IS than you do. IT IS A WAY OF EXISTANCE…THE BEST IDEA A BUNCH OF MEN IN WIGS COULD HAVE EVER COME UP WITH. IT IS HOPE ALONG WITH THE ABILITY TO WORK YOUR A$$ OFF TO ATTAIN WHAT YOU DESIRE, WORSHIP HOW YOU WISH, LIVE FREE AND LOVE.
I invite anyone who doesn’t agree to leave or stay put.
Sincerely,
Brenda
American-born Citizen/Voter/Gun owner/Wife/Mom
ramlady first,sorry for the delay.your research is wrong,all guns are allowed as long as they’re not automatic or the ”automatic” part is taken of,a friend of me owns a M16(he is a vietnammovie nut)but the weapon is leagle!not an automatic but leagle!anyway it’s not my thing.i never been in the military or in the police,military have to follow the same rules for gun ownership as a civilian just like in america.and the police in holland well….(it’s a little bit embarrassing)most of them,about 90% can’t shoot! i’am not kidding!they can’t.if isee a dutch cop reach for his or her gun,i duck for cover,they might shoot me,instead of the person they’re aiming at.it was a big news thing about four years ago.for owning a gun being a member of a gunclub(schietvereniging-dutch for gunclub google it) is mandatory,with a minimum attendance or you loose your licence.and believe me when i say i can shoot better than a cop….well….a dutch cop!LOL.we got our crap here in holland to robberies,burglaries and yes even shootings,but that’s criminals shooting other criminals and as long as no innocent bystanders are hurt not really a problem is it.i don’t know what the people of the U.S can do against these school shootings by a lone nut or some screwed up kids like in columbine,it just seems weird that it(almost)only happens in the U.S.we got guns in holland and in the rest of europe and the same violent games and rock or rap music,so i don’t really think thats it, holland and the rest of europe grows more violant to it’s just not out of control like it is over there,and i hope it never will…and uhhh dear brenda T what happens with your gun when your car gets stolen?and you can hold on to that piece of paper ’til your knuckles turn white and scream ’til you’re blue in the face, i still believe”the right to bear arms”remains an issue that need to be looked at,when i look at american tv documentaries it seems that a lot of WRONG PEOPLE abuse that right,and the funny part is they didn’t look that FREE to me at all!!!UPTIGHT,SCARED and STUPID maybey,and that’s a bad combination with guns,you don’t want these people in your backyard.it seems to me that they’ve been protecting there FREEDOM so hard that they’ve fogotten how to use it.that’s it you know!freedom is o.k but you got to know how to use it,and not abuse it.wow, there is a good countrysong in this(hands of it’s mine!)call garth brooks!!…..George McDonough?sounds scottish!in that case i sincerely doubt that he hated to go to war against the english!whatever the reason!LOL!
Dutch…hope it never gets stolen. I honestly do not leave ammunition in the vehicle, but in my purse. At least with that “little piece of paper”, I would report the weapon as stolen with our police in case it is ever recovered since it does have a serial number and is registered to me. The gun is locked in the glovebox and has a trigger lock in place (key on my keychain), so it would basically have to be destroyed to get at the trigger…and they’d have no bullets either unless they bought them or just happened to have that caliber.
Your post really was informative. Glad to know you are a better shot than your law enforcement :>)
I do take being a gun owner very, seriously. It’s not a joke and I hope I never need to use it for anything serious. I drive 100+ miles per day and if I break down on the highway in the middle of the night, I don’t want to be helpless. (I know you certainly get that.) I am called in all hours and I do live in the middle of nowhere.
I was in law enforcement, so I am aware of the laws/restrictions, etc. But I must agree that people abuse terribly. Although I agree there, our founding fathers knew what they were talking about allowing citizens to own firearms. Too bad so many Americans do take their Freedom a bit too far…way too far sometimes.
Brenda
By the way Dutch…didn’t think about it until the weekend, but..uhhhhh…your comment about “what if someone broke into your car and stole your weapon?????”
WEll…uhhhh…dear Dutch…what if someone broke into your home and stole yours? What piece of paper do you hold that would guarantee anything? Is your weapon registered to you in a National Database like me??? would the cops know they had your stolen weapon??? (Based on your post, would they know it was a weapon?)
Just more junk-food for thought.
Brenda
DHog: If you don’t mind, would you please cite your reference for what guns an ordinary Dutch citizen is LEGALLY allowed to own in the Netherlands? Everything I have read says you must belong to a gun club and then, only SPORTING guns are allowed (except for police and military). I have specifically read that self-defense is NOT an allowed reason for a citizen to own a firearm in the Netherlands. I am sure you would never mislead, but please cite your reference so I can read it for myself. TIA. Also DHog, perhaps your police would be better marksmen if they had the opportunity to practice their shooting skills as regular citizens BEFORE becoming police officers. It is no accident that many of our police and military members grew up with guns and had the chance to hone their shooting skills through hunting and target shooting when they were young. Sgt. Alvin York, for example from my state, grew up in a rural area where hunting was a way of life (as well as a way to insure you didn’t go hungry). A “just” system of government has nothing to fear from an armed citizenry.
One other thing DHog, I don’t think American society is MORE violent than other western societies in Europe, for example. The difference is in the choice of weapons. We’ve all seen how crazy and violent crowds at soccer games in Europe become. Truly frightening. Another example would be the minority youths roaming the streets in France setting fires and injuring and killing people. Where are the police? That would NOT be tolerated by citizens in America.
DHog: Just so you know, gun violence in schools does NOT solely occur in the U.S., here is a reminder of an incident in the Netherlands where a 17-year old student opened fire in a school:
http://archives.cnn.com/1999/WORLD/europe/12/07/dutch.shooting.04/
i know ,I KNOW!!,we got our share of shit!!and black market weapons,but you have to agree that with firearm related incidents,the U.S.is the absolute world leader!well,we all have seen that michael moore movie,didn’t we?i could not find any websites in the english language,i can give you the website of the store i go to.they have pictures of the weapons,but it is in dutch!…WWW.ROARMS.COM ..the safe is bolted to the wall on the inside,but if they really want it!well?i’am in construction so i know how easy it is to just break the wall!a big crowbar….well i can go on for i while,but i’ll do my best to prevent theft,if they really want them they will get them,it will not be easy but they will! i have seen these trigger locks,they’re pretty good!they should come as standerd with the gun!(maybey i get me a couple).and the police does learn to shoot when they are in training,they just don’t keep it up!they have their own shootinggallery,i live half a mile away from it,let me tell you it’s ten years old and brand new!nobody ever uses it!and then the guns they carry!well….lets say there no glocks!LOL 25 year old walthers!you know,those james bond inkidink rattlers with the sleds(don’t know the american term) totally worn,that means they get one shot off before it jams!they would be better of with an old peacemaker from 1880.LOL mabey they can borrow one of my guns when the shit hits the fan!but i still believe that a lot of wrong people abuse their right to bear arms,and that their dangerous just like charles carl roberts,you’ll never know what will set them off.i got no answers to how to spot these kind of monsters
DHog: Why aren’t Dutch police REQUIRED to improve and maintain their shooting skills by making it mandatory to practice at the firing range? Makes sense doesn’t it? Regarding our 2nd Amendment rights, yes it is true that SOME will abuse this right, no question. It is also true that SOME will abuse their right to freedom of speech also, as well as other Constitutional rights. Still, we don’t just throw out certain rights because they are unpopular among some of the public. There is a reason why they exist. No law-abiding citizen wants to see these terrible shootings that take place when some crazed lunatic shoots up a school, but it has been proven time and time again in other countries where guns are not so readily available to anyone who wants one, that criminals will ALWAYS be able to get their hands on guns, whether legally or illegally. I maintain that, while some will abuse this right, it is still the right of a law-abiding citizen to legally own a firearm for self-protection from the idiot thugs out there who would like to victimize us. Why should a law-abiding citizen be forced to surrender their life to a thug with a gun rather than have the right to defend themselves and their family with deadly force? There just aren’t enough police to go around to have one posted on everyone’s front porch, and I doubt a criminal is going to stand there and wait while you call the police. Yes, it is true that there are crazy people out there that will be set off by certain events and do some horrible things like Charles Roberts did, but this is the exception rather than the rule. Also, look at how some serial killers commit their murders: most of them never used a gun.
is it mandatory in the U.S.for policeofficers to maitain their shooting skills?and what if he or she sucks!what are they gonna do?fire them?don’t compare the freedom of speech with the freedom to carry a firearm!words can hurt but they won’t kill yea!i still think a gun in the house gives you a false sence of security,i really hope you’ve got the time to get the safe open get the lock off and load it when you get confronted with one of these people,and in a carjacking situation it’s wise to get out of the car as fast as possible lay down flat on the ground and pray!if you go for the gun you will get shot!100%!cars can be replaced!i’am serious,even if you keep the gun loaded in your lap while driving chances that it gets ugly is way bigger than just give them the car!when you shoot somebody they might still have the chance to pull the trigger,even when you shoot somebody in the heart they still got plenty of time to pull the trigger before they die!ask brenda T she was in law enforcement!they know about that kind of crap!having a gun gives you a false sence of security and power you just don’t have,and get you killed instead of losing a car,wallet or watch.basicly when there is a gun pointed at you ,you don’t have time to pull or get yours!even somebody with a knife can be faster!DON’T LOOSE ANY SLEEP OVER IT.SCARED LITTLE MONKEY!IT WON’T HAPPEN!(thinking this keeps you sane)
I don’t know if it is mandatory in every department or not. I do know that when my father was a policeman, they were required to keep their shooting skills up to par by practicing a certain number of times per year (I don’t remember how many times) at the firing range. They also had inter-department competitions every year. It only makes sense for a police officer, whether it is required or not, to become proficient at shooting in order to potentially save your own life as well as someone else’s.
Regarding your comment that the freedom to bear arms should not be compared with freedom of speech because, in your words, words do not kill, let me remind you of this: The words themselves do not kill, but as you know, words, whether spoken or written or posted on an internet blog, can incite people’s emotions and cause someone to go out and murder someone because of something that person said. Technically, the words did not commit the murder; an enraged person committed the murder, deciding to take out vigilante justice on someone because they were angered by those words. I know you recall the recent shooting of Theo Van Gogh in Holland who was murdered by an enraged Muslim because of his non-flattering statements and portrayals of Muslims. Who was it that said “the pen is mightier than the sword?”
Your contention that, when confronted with a criminal, a person will not have time to react effectively to stave off an attack is NOT true in every situation. In some situations, I agree, the best thing to do is whatever it takes to avoid bodily harm, but all situations are different. There are countless incidents where a law-abiding citizen with a gun was able to prevent becoming a victim of crime thanks to having a weapon, even if no shots were ever fired. Most criminals would rather pick an easier (defenseless) target than face someone with a gun. As for criminals with knives, I previously cited an example in an earlier comment where someone I know (my husband’s co-worker) was confronted with a thug waving a knife in his face and in the faces of his wife and daughter while the three were attending a festival in the downtown area of the city where I live. This two-bit thug demanded that they hand over their wallet and jewelry. Instead of handing over his wallet, my husband’s co-worker instead produced a pistol and pointed it right between this creep’s eyes. Nobody was shot. Nobody was hurt, but the creep started running backwards and apologizing, begging not to be shot. In the case of a carjacking, usually it is better to just give them the car because, unless you are carrying a loaded gun on you, you are not going to prevent them from taking the car anyway. But what if your child is strapped in the back seat, and the carjacker is not agreeable to letting you take time to get your child while he waits? Then what? Let him take your car with your child still in there? This has happened numerous times before. What would YOU do?
I never said that having a gun GUARANTEES you protection against a criminal, but NOT having some way of defending yourself almost GUARANTEES you will become a victim if a criminal decides to target you. Perhaps only rich celebrities who can afford body guards should have protection but not regular citizens? It is the ultimate hypocrisy for certain Hollywood liberals to voice their anti-gun stance while they have highly paid armed body guards following them around everywhere they go. Are their lives more precious and worthy of protection than that of a regular citizen? If guns are of no use to protect human life, then why do these celebrities pay their body guards to protect them with deadly force? For that matter, why do the police carry guns if they are of no use to protect human life?
Don’t worry DHog, I do not suffer from paranoia nor will I lose any sleep. These are my regular hours. It’s not my bedtime yet! BTW, why would a Dutchman be so concerned about OUR laws anyway? You are in Holland……remember? :>)
ramlady,YEAH!!you’re right!there your laws!how the hell did i get railroaded into this??LOL!i’ve looked back,and it was you!LOL!you din’t believe i was dutch!i don’t know anybody who would lie about that?espesially on this website!if you read what a lot off people thinking about holland,it’s not really a time to wave our flag .now is it?you where also the one who said we coulnd own a 357,44,or any(originally for) defence weapon?well? at least you got that staightend out!did you see the smith and wessons,colts and ak47′s on http://www.roarms.com?but still,in holland(percentagewise offcouse)way less people are shot by firearms than in the U.S.!i just wondered why?we got(percetagewise again)more criminals,muslims and other forein entities! thanks to our open borders,espessially eastern europeans they can walk in and out whenever they feel like it! and forget about a drugs problem!there is no problem!we got enough for everybody!LOL!but still the dutch people don’t feel like they have to protect themselfs with a gun!why?I DON’T KNOW!?i saw that 18.000 americans get murdered every year?is that true?in holland mabey a couple of dozen!and most of them are criminals!so we don’t really care!and about the muslims it will take a long long time to educate these people to respect woman other religions and all other living things, to our standerd,it is like theo van gogh said “a retarded culture of goatfuckers that needs to be dragged into the 21 century” he could have left that word out but he didn’t,he was no rightwing or something,he was no wing at all and made a lot of movies with morrocan and turkish people.we miss him!i was a big fan!i would have voted for him if he went into politics,but he hated politics!!WELTERUSTEN!(goodnight)
No DHog, I still do not have that straigtened out about what guns an average Dutch citizen can LEGALLY own in the Netherlands. I asked for you to cite a reference on that, and I am still waiting. Everything I have read says that you are only allowed to legally own sporting guns (open to interpretation what constitutes a sporting gun I suppose), and then only if you are a member of a gun club. I have also read that in the last couple years, your government has tightened the gun laws in your country even further. Whatever numbers you have read about murders with a gun in the U.S., I’m sure are overstated. I don’t know what the total number of gun deaths were for last year, but I’m sure you could look it up if you care to. Numbers stated are for gun DEATHS, not necessarily murders, meaning a death occurred and a firearm was used. Statistics do not differentiate between deaths where a person was actually murdered by another person with a gun, where a person committed suicide with a gun, and gun accidents where there was no intent to kill someone. It is not shocking that countries that do not allow regular citizens to legally own a gun for self-protection would have fewer deaths by guns. That’s not hard to figure out. If guns are only allowed to be taken out and played with at the gun club and not used for protection in the home or wherever, naturally you will have fewer deaths. How many people are killed in your country due to stabbings, beatings, traffic accidents, drownings, drug overdoses, or being pushed off a bridge? We have a Constitution that guarantees us the right to protect ourselves with a gun IF we so desire. Your gun rights, whatever they may be, are not guaranteed in your constitution. They are subject to the whims of the government in power at any given time. If that suits you fine, then congratulations; more power to you. After the Revolutionary War with the British fresh on their minds, our founding father’s believed that government was not to be completely trusted and felt that a weak central government with strong individual state governments was the way to go. It was believed that state militias, made up of regular citizens (with their own guns) could be called together to fight the central government if the central government became too powerful and starting stepping on the state’s (therefore the citizens) rights. The gun debate has been going on for many years and will continue for many more, but each time the 2nd Amendment has been challenged in the Supreme Court, the original intent is upheld that says individual citizens have the right to keep and bear arms. It does not mean the government cannot have regulations and rules such as registration, background checks, etc. Certain types of guns are excluded, and no one convicted of a felon can legally own a gun. Most law-abiding gun owners don’t have a problem with these rules and regulations. We don’t want criminals or insane people to have guns either. Regardless of the disinformation spread by the anti-gun groups who would love to disarm law-abiding citizens, an individual’s right to own a gun IS a crime deterrent. As dumb as most criminals are, it would not take them long to discover they would not be met with any resistance if they wanted to enter a person’s home and victimize them. The criminals are NOT going to surrender their guns, and the public should not be FORCED by the government to become guaranteed victims. And one last thing: I still don’t think you are Dutch…..but since you claim to know a little about guns, where can I get one of those Diana air rifles to shoot the English sparrows off my bluebird boxes? Are they any good? TIA……Good night…..:)
Hi Dutch. I see you are at least a thinker…good!
Please understand that if you saw Michael Moore’s film, that he is considered WAY liberal and is even too liberal for many conservatives in his own Democratic Party.
The Republicans are considered the “conservative ones” for the most part. They like guns, don’t agree with abortion on demand for birth-control reasons, do not agree with letting illegal immigrants have amnesty, go with the original Constitution, agree with death penalty for murderers, etc. I personally think Mike Moore’s film was a bunch of lies. Of course…it IS his belief, but he is a pacifist when it comes to fighting an enemy. (Example: If you had a bunch of drug dealers shooting up your neighborhood, I doubt negotiations and “being nice” to them would have any effect. Same with the extremists all the troops from around the globe are against now in this war on terror.)
I do not feel the Dutch are our enemy in any way. Things are messed up in some of your lands such as Aruba, but USA has its own share of “mess” just as the rest of the world. We are simply more vocal within the populus about it…and since we are considered the world’s police force at times, I can understand the scrutiny. Trust me, we are not after world dominance, but to have world peace you have to have “take care” of those who do not wish to see it.
There are truly mad-men in this world.
Brenda T.
i’ve said before that every privatly owned gun in holland is per defenition a sporting gun,and they didn’t thighten our laws even more,well…they can’t our gunlaws are allready as thight as a frogs asshole!i tryed to look up the numbers on firearm related…well everything really!i was talking about ALL firearm related deaths,so i also mean the accidents like a kid who finds his daddy’s gun lose in the bedsidetable,or in a shoebox on the top shelf in the bedroom closet,mabey you keep it in a safe that doesn’t mean everybody does!i was just pointing out that holland doesn’t even have 1% of gunrealated killings or accidents,compared to the U.S.(percetage wise offcourse),but a gun is still the number one weapon in homicide used in holland…ramlady glad to see that you’re still shooting english,even if they’re only sparrows!LOL!you should get together with brenda T,she’s from scottish desent they’re been shooting english sinds1775,LOL!!all i know from michael moore is what he showed in the movie,and i know it’s easy to make yourself look smart and the opposition look like a complete dillweed when it’s your movie!!i’am in favor of abortion for birth-control reasons,when they’re fast enough!not what they’re doing in spain,thats disgusting!7 months!even more!(i do believe that a child should be welcome in a home not just one more mouth to feed!)giving illegal immigrants a temporary visa so they get a fair wage and pay taxes on work we don’t want to do would only be good for the economy,but i’am talking about the dutch situation i don’t no about the situation in the U.S.?i do mean that whem the work is done that they go back to they’re country of origine.the deathpenalty is something so american that i don’t really have an oppinion about it ,but it seems to me an easy way out for the murderers,like the guy on top who shot himself to!!taking the easy way out!!cowerdly basterd!!and a bunch of drugdealers shooting up my neighbourhood!that never happens!ever!(knock wood)like i said before!!just drugdealers shooting other drugdealers!!i have no fear of them,i’am no drugdealer so they got my blessing!!LOL!i’am going to vote GROEN LINKS in holland that means somuch as “green left”it’s even worse i’am voting on a woman!!LOL!!so ramlady,i don’t believe in killing animals just for the hell of it!!i’am not a veggy but let me tell you this ,i went on a date once,i drove up to her house,and she opened the door and came out wearing a furrcoat,i looked at her said “this is not going to work” got back into my mercedes and drove off!!that evening my friends where on the floor laughing!!it’s twenty years ago and they’re still talking about it sometimes!!LOL!!i always say,at least the chick got the message!!so leave the little birdies alone and shoot yourself a cow!so we can have a barbeque!texas style!i bring the hot sauce!like i said i’am no veggy!(or is it A1 sauce)are you a coke or a pepsi girl?LOL!!oh yeah!GROETEN UIT HOLLAND!!!!!!!EIGENWIJS!!!
DHog; And I was just pointing out that it doesn’t take a brain surgeon to understand that if Dutch citizens are not ALLOWED to have guns for self-defense, whereas Americans are, then naturally there will be fewer GUN-RELATED deaths in the Netherlands. When analyzing those figures, consider how many deaths or assaults were PREVENTED in the U.S. (I’m sure you will say none) because a potential victim was able to defend themselves with a gun.
You would do well to take Michael Moore with a huge grain of salt. Better yet, just TAKE HIM…..Please, we don’t need him here. Don’t confuse a “jokeumentary” with a documentary.
FYI, I don’t “shoot animals for the hell of it.” Apparently, you are uninformed as to the plight of the Eastern Bluebird. They are extremely beneficial in the warm months since they eat several times their body weight in mosquitoes. We have more than our fair share of these nasty little biting ba@#*ards in the southeastern U.S. in the summer. Therefore, the more bluebirds you have to keep these vile little insects under control, the less you have to worry about diseases like West Nile and other mosquito-borne illnesses. They are also vectors for deadly heartworm disease in dogs. Because of urban sprawl and the resulting decrease in farmlands, natural bluebird habitat has been greatly reduced in the last couple of decades. They are fairly particular about where they build their nests. They prefer a hole just big enough for them to squeeze through, but not large enough for larger birds to fit into, such as a small hole in a fence post. They also prefer an open area where they are not as vulnerable to other birds or owls, etc. To boost bluebird populations and get them thriving again in my part of the country, people are encouraged to erect bluebird houses on their property to replace the lost natural habitat. Bluebirds are not at all aggressive towards other small birds, and since they mainly eat mosquitoes and other flying insects instead of worms, they have short, non-pointy beaks; therefore, they have no defense mechanism against more aggressive, territorial birds like the English sparrow whose numbers are plentiful plus they are not beneficial as far as keeping the mosquitoes under control as they are worm-eaters mainly. They use their sharp, long, pointy beaks for digging up worms and for pecking the heads of my little bluebirds until they kill them. Without the intervention of my husband’s pellet gun, they will take over the bluebird’s house, even with a nest full of baby bluebirds already in it. If they catch the mother or father bluebird sitting on the nest in the house, they will peck their heads with their sharp beaks until they kill them, and then they take over the house and build in it themselves. If they catch the baby bluebirds in there without protection of either adult, they will peck them to death. They will also peck the bluebird eggs before they hatch and destroy them. They have also tried to take over residence in our purple martin houses. Purple martins are beneficial the same way bluebirds are; and the English sparrows are usually successful in running them off too. So anyway, there’s your backyard bird lesson for the day. No advice on the Diana huh….? BTW, I don’t own a fur coat (or a Mercedes either for that matter), and as far as hunting goes–we don’t hunt anything we don’t eat. Since you say you are not a veggie and have no problem with eating beef, don’t you think that’s a little hypocritical to be against hunting, but you have no problem eating a cow at a barbecue? So it’s okay if someone other than you kills the animal so you can eat it, right?
well now you’re just reaching!how many deaths were prevented?jeez!O.K.i’am making a wet finger estimate here!buttuuhh 2,3?i’am not counting lawenforcement here!but there is a fine line of defending yourself with a gun and needing to defend yourself with a gun.how many people got killed because other people “needed”to protect themself with a gun?but here you go now i’am reaching!LOL! about that airrifle, ever heard of a thing called Ebay?LOL!they are almost giving them away!not kidding!i checkt!didn’t even know what a bluebird was!i’ve heard the song!i just never knew what they looked like!LOL!why do you call them enlish sparrows?on the website they were called house sparrows,want to know something funny!the house sparrow is an endangerd spiecies overhere!!you don’t own a furrcoat?o.k.you can stay!you don’t drive a mercedes?well a jaguar or a bmw they are o.k to…. i’ll guess?LOL!i know it’s hypocritical eating beef and be against hunting!like the honerable ted nugent once said;everybody who wants to eat meat should be obligated to at least kill one animal in their life,it will teach them respect for the meat they fill up their shoppingcarts with,without thinking of it twice where it came from!(something like that),still don’t like hunting though!i think it’s something dutch, i don’t know?remember the movie dances with wolves,first you see people getting shot in the war then settlers getting killed by indians,indians killed by indians,blood all over the place!the audience gave no reaction!until the wolf gets shot!the entiere audience went ooohhhhh!LOL,i thought it was funny(not that the wolf got shot but their reaction)
DHog: Nope, I don’t think I am reaching asking how many deaths may have been prevented by someone defending himself or his family with a gun. You ask “how many people got killed because of someone’s need to protect himself with a gun.” I say how many people were killed by criminals because they had no way to protect themselves? Anyway, we could go around and around this all day, but let’s just agree to disagree about this, okay? I’m never going to convince you of my viewpoint, and you are never going to convince me of yours.
Concerning the Diana air rifle: I thought you said you were a gun enthusiast. You said you were a gun club member and shooting guns is your hobby so I assumed you might know a little something about one of the finest European air rifles made, the Diana (made in Germany). You say they are giving them away on Ebay?? Better check again DHog; they don’t sell guns on Ebay, not even air rifles. Perhaps you saw the two items currently on Ebay (last time I checked about an hour ago) that were old product literature about Diana air rifles. Even if Ebay were to sell air rifles, I don’t think you would be finding them giving them away. They retail anywhere from about $300-600 new. Very pricey for an air rifle IMO. My husband has a Benjamin which is very accurate and only costs around $100. It is difficult for me to use though because of its cocking mechanism. Don’t tell me a Dutch guy who is familiar with guns has never heard of a Diana….
On the Bluebird subject: English sparrows are the same thing as English House sparrows. We call them English sparrows because that is what they are. They are a non-native (to North America) invasive species imported from England in the mid 1800s. They are not to be confused with North American native species of sparrows which pose no threat to the native Eastern Bluebird. Here is a link for you to learn more about the English sparrow’s impact on the Eastern Bluebird in the U.S.:
http://sparrowtraps.net/why_trap_sparrows.htm
“As invasive species, the English House sparrow, as well as the European Starling and Pigeon are NOT protected by the laws that protect our native birds. Disposition of the English House sparrow and the Starling is not only legal, but in many cases encouraged.”
“The English sparrow is a primary reason for the decline of the Bluebird as well as the Purple Martin populations in North America…..the sparrow will often enter the nest and destroy the eggs and/or kill the nestlings. If an adult Bluebird is unlucky enough to be caught in a nest box by a House Sparrow, the sparrow will use its powerful beak to peck a hole in its rival’s skull thus killing it. The House Sparrow has done untold damage to the native populations of cavity nesters in North America and in fact, as early as 1903 in his book, “The Birds of Ohio,” W.L. Dawson said, ‘Without question the most deplorable event in the history of American ornithology was the introduction of the English Sparrow.’”
“The ‘winged rat’ is now prevalent throughout the continent where it not only competes with the native birds, but spreads livestock diseases, avian lice, destroys crops, and makes a general dirty mess wherever it congregates. In these places, bacteria, fungal agents, and parasites in the feces may also pose a health risk.”
The Eastern Bluebird is the state bird of both Missouri and New York. There is tons of info on the internet about the Bluebird if you are really interested. In case you have never seen a Bluebird, go here for a picture and more info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Bluebird
Due to their aggresive nature and ability to thrive almost anywhere, I seriously doubt English sparrows are endangered on the European continent. They usually prefer to live in close proximity to people.
Ted Nugent is right on the subject of people who are anti-hunting but think nothing of eating meat they purchased at the supermarket. Hunting will teach you to respect where your food comes from. That beef, chicken, and pork you throw into your shopping cart did not commit suicide afterall—somebody had to kill them before they got to your table. I understand that some people don’t like the idea of hunting, and they don’t have to do it if they don’t want to, but if their ancestors had refused to do it, they would have likely starved to death.
Nope, not only do I not own a fur coat or a Mercedes; I don’t own a Jaguar or a BMW either. So what do you drive? If I could hazard a guess, you seem like a sports car kind of guy, but not just ANY sports car; I would guess something exotic and expensive. Something like, oh I don’t know, a Ferrari perhaps?
a diana airrifle was my first, i bought it when i was 13, with a uncle of mine (you had to be 18to buy one)i shot a seagull once at 200 jards(easy)in mid flight,well i didn’t killed it, i aimed and pulled the trigger never thinking i would acually shoot something at such a distance in mid air!it made a couple of thumbles and flew away,it scared the crap out of me!LOL!i still got it! the handle is split and i dropped it down from the attic once! so i think it’s crooked like an politician now!i’am not really at home with air rifles,but do you think i accually believe that you don’t know where to buy a airrifle in the U.S.?you can buy S&W a colt or a berretta but not an airgun? if they don’t got them you can order them! and $300 or a little more in’t that expensive?and uuuhhh?? suprise!!i don’t even own a car at the moment!!LOL! got a harley fat boy and a kawasaki zzr1100,but no car!LOL!the starling is very different than a sparrow and is a migratory bird and cross the oceans all by themself!and starlings are not indangered, there are litraraly “black clouds” of those birds!when they come or go!
DHog: Yes, I am aware that a starling and a sparrow are two different birds. Apparently, you were only halfway paying attention. The article I linked to did not say that starlings and pigeons were the same bird as the English House sparrow. It said starlings were, along with the English sparrow, invasive species and are not protected by laws that protect our native birds. Starlings are not endangered anywhere that I know of, and because there are so many of them, and they are not a protected species, it is not illegal to shoot them.
So you shot a flying seagull at 200 yards huh…..wow, that would be 600 FEET…..with an air rifle?? An air rifle shoots .177 caliber pellets, very small. Now, I know you are stretching it. First, an air rifle, even a good one, would not likely kill a seagull at 50 feet, provided you could hit it at that distance. Air guns are for VERY short distance shooting. Accuracy drops off dramatically over more than about 40-50 feet. A good shooter can kill something as small as a sparrow with a .177 pellet at about 35-40 feet with open sights IF you can hit it. I am aware that I could order a Diana if I wanted one. Since you are supposed to be a gun enthusiast from Europe, I thought I would get your opinion on whether they are any good, since I do not know of anyone who has ever shot one. If you shot a seagull at 600 feet with a little .177 pellet in an air gun, well you must be in the Guinness Book of World Records……and at only 13 years old!! WOW!! BTW, $300-600 IS considered pricey for an air gun which many consider to be a toy, especially since you can get a Benjamin or a Gamo for a little over $100. Anybody with $300 burning a hole in their pocket and wanting something to plink with would more than likely opt for a .22LR pistol or rifle, not an air gun.
So you don’t own a car huh…..better scroll back up to your comment #57 where you said when you go to the gun club to shoot your guns, you put your guns in a locked case in the trunk of your CAR.
[...] Amish School Shootings, Charles Carl Roberts IV [...]
wats up peeps who own internet? that guy that killed the girls wats up wit that? that man desserved 2 die…. at least noone had 2 do it he did it hiself….. text back if u agree
wow ramlady, u really no how 2 tell people about a gun, wat do u think bout that guy that killed the little gi9rls
duthchdog is full of crap he probably has a bike…. yeah i went there b****