Natalee Holloway: Tim Miller of Texas EquuSearch Discusses Crab Trap, Clothing and DNA Found in Waters of Aruba


RV Persistence and Texas EquuSearch Find Crab Trap and Clothing in Aruban Waters

Reports are stating that the piece of clothing and DNA was not a match to missing Alabama teen in Aruba, Natalee Holloway. One might presume the first question is … then who’s is it? How many crab traps with clothing in them are in the waters of Aruba?


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  • Comments

    110 Responses to “Natalee Holloway: Tim Miller of Texas EquuSearch Discusses Crab Trap, Clothing and DNA Found in Waters of Aruba”

    1. kitty on February 27th, 2008 8:18 am

      Good Question… this is at least, very disturbing and I pray, they find out what this clothing was doing in a crab trap and who this was… and also, am praying that Equisearch finds evidence of Natalee to bring Justice for her ~ (no body no crime PVDS statement… then, it appears Hans Mo can act and move forward with an arrest??)
      It’s so sad, imagining someone doing this to another human being… it’s unconscienable.

    2. kitty on February 27th, 2008 8:19 am

      forgive the spelling errors..on the last word shown above.

    3. Ed on February 27th, 2008 8:26 am


      Ariba is a more dangerous place than I even 1st thought. Is there not civil law on that island. Isn”t there not anyone that can take charge and investigate theses criminals. How many others are burried in crab traps. Anyone that goes to Aruba should have there head examined.

    4. flippy on February 27th, 2008 8:41 am

      What does strike me is that the “DNA” was not a match. I don’t see anything in these articles (short as they are) that indicate what was found that DNA testing could have been on? Can you do DNA testing on a shirt/pants that have obviously rotted through (judging by the pictures that trap has been down there a looong time).

    5. mommytraveler on February 27th, 2008 8:44 am

      I guess my biggest questions is: Who actually recovered the material and did Tim Miller’s crew get to look at it, photograph it, take some of their own samples? I am uneasy with the Aruban authorities checking anything associated with this case, especially forensic evidence. They do not seem to be able to keep track of anything.

    6. MY THOUGH on February 27th, 2008 9:21 am

      could it possibly be another person joran and his dad and the two brothers killed and disposed of..

    7. Lotte Lenya on February 27th, 2008 9:23 am

      “…One might presume the first question is … then who’s is it? ”

      IMO it’s just an old discarded rag belonging to the owner that dumped the trap. I think there’d be a lot of dumped traps down there.

    8. bobbie on February 27th, 2008 9:35 am

      So this is a different crab trap than what Tim found on the Dateline show? I’m assuming yes, but it still looks enormous. Hard to tell, we need more details! I can’t even make out what’s in there. If a human body was in there, is it possible for all the skeletal remains to have been eaten away by sea creatures, to only leave this kind of evidence?

    9. Pam on February 27th, 2008 9:37 am

      Didn’t Tim Miller also say that there was something in there that looked like a skull too or did I hear incorrectly?

    10. brie on February 27th, 2008 9:39 am

      Well it there was a piece of fabric found what’s it doing in the crab cage, there were no bones found but what did Tim see that looked like a skull. We never got an answer on what the divers said it was…I don’t trust Aruba divers, maybe we should have brought the cage up…they are being paid but someone could be paying more…

    11. Michelle on February 27th, 2008 9:41 am

      It looks like a human skull and a piece of clothing. He said the DNA doesn’t match Natalee’s. We’ve heard that before. Who did the forensic testing on this? I wonder how many more innocent women have been dumped in the sea like Natalee. This is bizarre. Something needs to be done about this now.

    12. kaye on February 27th, 2008 9:42 am

      #7 lotte lenya…In my opinion, from all the accounts i’ve read, the Persistence has such sophisticated equipment that they can spot a dime on the ocean floor, if there were more of these large crab cages on the ocean floor, within this radius of the search, they would have found them by now. what are the odds of finding a crab cage directly off of the lighthouse, with clothing of some sort in it? several psychics have stated that this is where she is? i don’t think any clue should be discounted. mama used to say “if you turn over enough rocks, sooner or later there will be something under one of them”. we cannot give up hope. if we do, all is lost.

    13. brie on February 27th, 2008 9:50 am

      Well if we can get the money to them, they have 170 spottings and will narrow those down to something they could be a crab cage.

    14. Lotte Lenya on February 27th, 2008 9:57 am

      This is the trap that Tim and the Persistance found in January. The trap that they thought had an object that looked like a skull in it. It turned out that the only thing in the trap was a scrap of material. The U.S FBI (not Aruba) did the testing on the fabric to see if it matched Natalee’s. The FBI said that no it wasn’t a match and they couldn’t comment any further.

      Greta interviewed Tim who explained that the fabric and DNA didn’t match.

      Greta asked Tim about the fabric and DNA. Tim spoke at length about the trap and the fabric but didn’t address the DNA issue.

      Greta then did what Greta does best…She had a brain fart and forgot to ask him again to explain his DNA comment.

      So now we’re left hanging with the question of did Tim really not mean to say that there was DNA or was DNA actually found??!!! Thanks Greta. Another job well done.

    15. nctripp on February 27th, 2008 9:59 am

      I am confused about whether the shirt did not match what she was wearing or DNA did not match.
      What was the temp that evening?? It would not be unusual if she put on a sweater or jacket that belonged to one of the guys or if she was sick at the house to change shirts . Still think she
      could have been wrapped in something in the boat
      to prevent dna from getting on boat.
      Is there anyway that her bones (man I hate saying that) could have disintergrated(sp?)
      by now.

    16. Lotte Lenya on February 27th, 2008 10:04 am

      @ #12 Kaye

      “…within this radius of the search, they would have found them by now…”

      Kaye, according to Tim this particular trap was only the first object of 170 objects that Persistance has located and recovered in that area. It looks like they’re calling off the search due to money before investigating the other 169 objects in the area. This is why calling off the search is such a shame.

    17. Sharon Chicago on February 27th, 2008 10:16 am

      I noted the photo’s taken of the traps have a date on them of 12/27/07.

      I am sure they did a DNA test on any bones if
      any were found in the cage with the cloth fabric.

      I pray they do find Natalee soon.

    18. brie on February 27th, 2008 10:17 am

      Texas Equusearch said if they could get every viewer that saw the show, I guess meaning Dateline, to send one dollar they would have enough money. But you can’t get everybody to do that. Folks, we have got to find some money FAST! But keep sending your donations.

    19. Bob in Florida on February 27th, 2008 10:32 am

      Several points concern me.

      First, I believe this is only the beginning of the visual search of target identified by the Persistence sonar searches (I heard a statement some time ago that they hard a list of over 150 sonar hits to now visually examine using the ROV).

      Second, this trap seems way too large to be hauled out and dumped on from a small (16 – 20 ft??) boat by only one person (per Urine’s video statement). At one point, I heard the Persistence team had interviewed the fisherman who owned the missing trap (something the fisherman to the team ALE had yet to do), and they had obtained a detailed description of the trap, built a replica and dropped it in the water to obtain a sonar signature. How does this trap compare to the replica trap? If this is an accurate size for the trap, that should help determine the number of men required to dump it with a 100 pound body inside and give an indication if the size of boat needed (how does it compare to the Gottenbos’ boat)?

      Third: Why wouldn’t they bring the trap up? Surely it would be better to examine the trap on the surface than in the water. What was the ‘skull-like’ object? If they brought it up, they might be able to determine length of time in the water from the type and amount of marine growths on the cage

      Forth: As mentioned earlier, what was used to compare the fabric found? If, as I believe, the park ranger actually found a piece of Natalee’s top during the early searches (and not a piece of very fashionable fishing net as claimed by ALE), it would indicate to me it wasn’t on her when her body was disposed of (was any of her clothing?). As for DNA, there would not be useful DNA left on fabric after this amount of time in the water. There might be useful DANA found in bones (and according to the news talking heads) that should be all that is left of a body after approx. 3 years in the water). If she was in the trap, the larger bones as a minimum should be contained within the trap even now (after all, the trap is designed to keep all but fairly small predators/scavengers inside once they are inside, and the large bones would not be able to “float away”).

    20. disgustedmom on February 27th, 2008 10:33 am

      This smells of BS to me.

      I wouldn’t put it past Aruba to have found a piece of fabric at some other location and just said they found it ‘in the crab cage’ so they could get it tested by FBI without having to disclose the real place they found fabric.

      It just doesn’t make a bit of sense that a ‘piece’ of fabric would be found. Why just a piece? I mean either you take off the clothes or not. How can you leave a piece just like that?

      It’s BS!

      And don’t forget one of the searchers at the beginning had a piece of fabric in his hand at some rocks they were seaching. THAT fabric looked for all the world like the top Natalee had been wearing. If they had THAT piece long ago, where did they get it?

      Someone(s) really wants the world to think Natalee is in the ocean! I don’t belive it for one second.

      And come on…testing for DNA? After it’s been in the water for almost 3 years? Come on!

      It’s BS!

      Note to Tim Miller….and you are all going to hate me for this…..GO HOME and get some rest! Tim is way too emotional, way too trusting and naive. ALE has found a pawn to play with.

      The saddest thing about this case is that there is no one who can be trusted to tell IF anyone should actually have information or evidence. NO ONE! Even if you tell the family, they can’t do anything without involving people in Aruba. The only way this case might ever get solved is if some outside organization were put in charge of the case with privy to ALL information before anyone else gets it and the sole authority to investigate all leads. And since that’s not going to happen…well….It is obviously all up to GOD! And maybe it’s high time the Humans asked God to carry them on this one and sit back and let God handle it the way HE wants to.

      Evil CANNOT win! But it can survive as long as it is fed. That’s all I’m preachin’ today!

    21. always 1 on February 27th, 2008 10:34 am

      i stumbled on a site that has Observer777 talking to dutch people where he or she says they know things about the NH case and can prove them….how can this be and isnt she or he one of you????????

    22. disgustedmom on February 27th, 2008 10:40 am

      One more thing before I go….as long as the Persistence is there, there are lots of people spending money on Aruba for lots of things. If you donate, remember you are inadvertantly handing over money to the Aruban Economy.

    23. MikefrMd on February 27th, 2008 10:41 am

      I like that Tim and the searchers are relying on the FBI instead of Aruba.

      Pretty bad when you have so little faith in the the local authorites that you have to bypass them with the potential evidence.

      As for Greta she does seem to drop the ball alot especially when it comes to follow questions….was she a prosecutor or defense attorney? If she was defense it might explain why she doesn’t play hard ball with the perps…doesn’t want them to hang themselves.

    24. EURobert on February 27th, 2008 10:53 am

      Don’t know if anyone is interested in this or if it was posted anywhere before. It’s an article at the Dutch about how the broadcast of the PRdeVries show was perceived in the NL’s

      Transl. Google and me (I only translated where the Google-translation TOTALY missed the point; so it’s not fluent english.)

      On Thursday, January 31, 2008 Peter R. De Vries got all Netherlands in a stir with his announcement that he had solved file Natalee Holloway (link) and that three days later he would explained that on TV. What followed was a short madness where there was a lot of speculation, and where all of the Netherlands looked out for the broadcast. Also on FOK! (Link) we noticed this and then we decided to set up a special forum (link) (abbr.: JOR) to the matter, so before, during and after the broadcast there could be plenty of discussion.

      The television-view figures (link) that were on Monday, February 4 announced weren’t ambiguous and do indicate that the broadcast had drawn more than seven million viewers (translator: on a population of some 16 million). It’s clear that many people have viewed the broadcast, but the question is how far the Dutchman perceived the issue before and after. Traditionally there is not much data available, but fortunately, the Internet is becoming a solution. The FOK! Forum, which according to internal measurements in January 2008 had almost 1.9 million unique visitors, is according to Big-boards (link) within the Dutch language area (translator: incl. N. Belgium) the biggest “general discussion forum and therefore gives a good indication of how the Dutchman’ perceived this matter. Time therefore to dive into the statistics.

      The JOR Forum on Saturday, February 2 launched around 20.00 o’clock, and as the following picture shows belonged from the beginning to the most popular forums. On top is the active topics page (the page with a list of topics where most recently is responded in) plus the front page of the FOK! Forum and – very Dutch, a complaints-forum followed by the forum JOR: Overview of forumpages with the highest page views, Saturday, February 2 (see picture on site)

      The statistics from Sunday, February 3, the day of the broadcast, it’s shown that there is definitively a gigantic interest. The forumindex of JOR appears to be even more frequently visited than the active topics page and the front page of the whole FOK! Forum: Overview of forum with the highest page views, Sunday, February 3 (see picture on site)

      When we look at how many more topics in the complaints-forum were viewed on Sunday and how many in the JOR forum, we see an even greater difference: 25,940 views in the complaints-forum against 122,826 in JOR.
      That there was considerably read and posted in JOR was also clearly visible during the broadcast. It was striking to see how many people apparently with a laptop on lap sat watching television and in the meantime were online discussing. (Link) When, for example, a technical malfunction occurred in the programme, there were within no time 75 almost identical responses: (see picture on site)

      Also on Hyves there was affiliation with the broadcast according to Yme Bosma, because from the moment that the name Daury fell, his profile on hyves massively visited. (Link)

      How busy it was that evening, also is seen in the following chart of the data across FOK! (Frontpage, forum, gamessite, sportsite, weblog and book), wherein the higher activity during the broadcast, and the peaks during the advertising are clearly seen. Normally we see that kind of enormous peaks only when there are new episodes of FOK! TV (link) to be made available: Datatraffic FOK! in Million bits per second, Sunday, February 3 (see graph on site)

      The rest of the week the interest was still very high. On Monday, February 4 apparently everyone wanted to know how ‘The Netherlands’ judged the broadcast and there the interessepeak was reached. The forumindex of JOR was viewed almost 73,000 times (and the topics in the forum 177,000 times). That same day, the index of the complaints-forum for example, “only” 12,048 times). Tuesday, there was a sharp decline visible to 27,178 page views on the forumindex of JOR. One of the reasons for the sharp decline was the fact that FOK! On Tuesday, February 5 was not easily accessible, that’s why probably the decrease seems slightly sharper. There was a link on the front page of to a news article on the FOK! Frontpage, which that day was responsible for 180,000 extra visitors. Ultimately, it was not until February 9 before the complaints-forum cought up with JOR . Over a longer period, the popularity looks like this: Page views on the index page of the JOR Forum (see graph on site)

      At this time, the indexpage of the JOR-forum still has about 3000 times views per day (for reference: complaints-forum has 12,000) and JOR is still as popular as the news and achtergrondenforum and more popular than, for example, the music-forum. It is of course the question if a platform as the FOK! Forum ultimately is representative of how the issue was perceived in The Netherlands (although the agreement between the graph above, and for example google trends (link) or striking).

      Are there others who want to share their data and can complete this image or nuance it?

    25. Lotte Lenya on February 27th, 2008 10:56 am

      @ #20 Disgustedmom

      The Dateline story featuring the Holloways and Tim Miller explains this whole crab trap story, what was done, what wasn’t done, and who was involved. Don’t worry, Tim wasn’t going on the word of Aruba in terms of what was in this trap.

    26. kaye on February 27th, 2008 11:45 am

      #24 EURobert……..since i’m not dutch can you provide translation of some of the comments from that article, either pos/neg just to give us non-dutch speaking individuals an idea of the feelings of the dutch population. ive been interested in what intelligent, open-minded dutch people think about this case. thanks.

    27. REED on February 27th, 2008 11:50 am

      who cares if the fabric didnt match. that means nothing. this could be a sheet that she was wrapped up in. maybe she was bloody and they wrapped her up in several pieces of fabric that were not hers. i am more interested to see if this fabric matches anything of the Van Der Sloots or Kalpoes. not natalee. could this fabric be connected to the kalpoes or joran or paulus is the real question. Aruban investigators are the dumbest people on earth. hell natalee might not have even been wearing clothes when she was disposed. they were raping her! remember! this whole thing makes me sick

    28. lin on February 27th, 2008 12:00 pm

      If everyone sent in just $1, the search could continue. I covered my $1 and a few others. If those than can would, we can maybe keep the search going long enough. The site accepts PayPal, credit cards or you can mail in a payment. Be sure to type “Natalee Holloway” to make sure your donation goes to that search. Here is the link:

      Also, if everyone would just send one email to the state department, there would be action taken. To me it makes more sense to spend tax dollars on this case than to spend them investigating professional sports. Please call, fax, write or email the US State Department to demand diplomatic action in this case. Please encourage friends and family members to do the same. Please post the link for email often to encourage others interested in the case to do the same. Please email or call daily to demand action and the status of government involvement. Imagine what even the threat of a government backed national boycott would do to encourage a resolution to this case.

      Here’s the email link:

      SM: Please use to make the long url you keep posting smaller. It blows the page for people and I don’t have time to fix it every time you post it. I will start deleting the link from now on unless it’s made smaller. (klaasend)

    29. katablog on February 27th, 2008 12:07 pm

      Guess people are posting and not reading. As someone explained on the earlier thread, if you’ve watched crap fishing, a large “glob” of bait is put in the trap. This bait “glob” is held together with material (don’t know if it’s rags or what). The crab traps are thrown off the boat with the use of a wench type device and have a floating type balloon attached so they can later be found. anyhow, after a number of hours the fishermen go back and try to pull up all the traps. It would not be terribly unusual for them to occasionally miss one, especially in bad weather, or if occasionally one gets detached from it’s floating balloon and can’t be found. Of course it would also be possible for an errant crab cage to have some material (from some other source: say dumped off a cruise ship) catch in it.

      Bottom line: the fact that a crab cage was found with material in it that doesn’t match with Natalee doesn’t mean someone else was tossed in the ocean or that something nefarious happened.

    30. Libby on February 27th, 2008 12:10 pm

      I’m with you mommytraveler #5. I trust NO ONE in Aruba to do any testing what so ever. The tests MUST be done in the US. There is not one offical in Aruba that wants us to find Natalee. The faberic they found in the cage may not have belonged to her. More than likely she wasn’t wearing any clothes. After all, in the beginning, they found what looked like her shirt in the rocks. And, Joran and his sicko mother described her underpants. I think they wrapped her in something. IF it isn’t her, who the heck else could it be? What a screwed up place. Wonder how many more fish traps they will find with bodies. jeez.

    31. MadBadger on February 27th, 2008 12:11 pm

      Umm…I wouldn’t be looking for her clothes she was wearing that night, they probably got thrown away in the sloot trash, and if she were wrapped in anything then it was a sheet and plastic, only makes sense that they’d get rid of the sheets and we know they had her in plastic. Maybe she wasn’t dead that night, and maybe the setup of the tow “security guards” went further than just jurines word, maybe they already planted the body where it would implicat the security guards, and maybe it is still there. Otherwise, if they got rid of her body that night, why implicate the guards at all? They wanted the body to be found where it would imlicate the two blacks.

    32. lin on February 27th, 2008 12:26 pm

      Sorry, klaasend. Certainly didn’t mean to offend you, just wasn’t aware of the method to shrink the url. If you’ve previously responded with directions, I didn’t see them, likely wasn’t on the page any longer by the time they were posted. May I suggest sending an email to explain procedures to those, like me, who don’t understand something, to make sure they get it? Seems like it would be more effective than deleting a well intentioned post.
      SM: I’m not offended at all, I just know if/when I let the links go through that are too long I get complaints from people that the margins are blown. Makes it hard for others and more work for me. I do not intend to delete your well intentioned post. The instructions at are quite simple and no need for me to be emailing people instructions. I’m sure you will find it easy to do. Sorry, but I don’t have time to send out special emails to people. (klaasend)

    33. always 1 on February 27th, 2008 12:43 pm

      klasend, doesnt it concern you that observer777 posts on a dutch board that she/he is one of you and he/she can prove Prove all the facts he/she states about the NH case…..
      SM: Not at all. Observer is simply providing them information as they were very uninformed on the case. We now have many new Dutch members from that Dutch board. I see no problem at all (klaasend)

    34. EURobert on February 27th, 2008 12:46 pm

      # 28 Klaasend: thanks for the link to the tiny-url site; I’ve had the same problem (long-urls) as well a couple of times. I’ve downloaded the ‘tiny-browser-tool’ now.
      BTW: In the past on a site of mine I’ve used a tiny-url-plugin. I’ve looked for it and only found this one: It automaticly shortens long urls on blogs.

      # 26 Kaye: I’ve just read all of the comments on that page. They’re all about different visit-numbers, ratings of blogs, forums, marketing-stuff and so on during the days of the airing of the show. So no direct comments about the NH-case.

    35. always 1 on February 27th, 2008 1:05 pm

      ERROBERT read Natalie in the rebound on Feb 4 2008

    36. always 1 on February 27th, 2008 1:31 pm

      the letter from joran where he talks about having sex with Karen is vey interesting and then he says he has a 12 year old girlfriend…

    37. EURobert on February 27th, 2008 1:32 pm

      # 35 Always 1

      You mean in the Dutch translation? I most certainly will! But I’m not sure if it’s in the bookstores yet. I’ll look for it on the net.

    38. EURobert on February 27th, 2008 1:41 pm

      Sorry, forgot you mentioned a date (Feb 4 2008). I don’t know what you mean?

    39. disgustedmom on February 27th, 2008 1:50 pm

      #25….I watched Dateline. Taped it even and watched it again. And Tim DID say Dompig told him to stop looking in the Landfill and focus on the Ocean.

      ALE has always contended Natalee was dumped at sea, even as they stated emphatically their high tech computer seawatch system indicated no boats went out that night. Such a contradiction, eh? And so stupid! Like, what about other nights? And what about if she were slipped onto a ship that was leaving for other reasons?

      People want to think ALE is like the Keystone Cops. I don’t think so. I think they are practiced at being avoidant, misleading and evasive with absolutely no interest in caring about anyone but their own.

      And Tim HAS to work with Aruba if he wants to work at all. So…who’s calling the allowable shots? They even told Tim where he could and could not land search.

      On Dateline I realize Tim was the one who saw what he believed to be a skull in that ‘now famous’ fish trap and made the call to Dave about it. (great points BTW Katabog and whoever originally posted about the rags being used to tie bait)

      But honestly, Tim is great man full of care and concern for others, but he is burnt out on this one! And he needs to take a break. All that faery tale talk of Dolphins leading him to Natalee and the ‘sign’ of first spotting the trap on Xmas Eve where he fell short of saying what a great Xmas present this would be for her family…he’s losing it!….he’s so desperate to find Natalee in the ocean and probably more so since the funds were running low. And then he got yanked around by the ‘drug runner rat’? I’m tellin’ ya, THEY know they can make Tim jump through hoops at this point and by proxi make everyone still demanding justice look stupid while THEY look smart, calm cool and collected…, so all I’m sayin’ is It’s time for Tim to take a much needed break!

      ALE and lots of players in this game from the side of ALE think American’s are STUPID! ya know? Joran and his family of the ditch believe so too. And Joran thinks this is all so funny! So does Paulus if Joran is to be believed when he wrote that he and Paulus were LAUGHING when the Dutch came to search their property.

      The bottom line is…they know EXACTLY what happened to Natalee and where she is now. And they are not going to help find her or give any truth about her plight. Their simple early waves of a coverup has exploded into a tsunami! And the sick basta**s are letting those who DO CARE about Natalee do useless work that only makes it appear there can be no resolution to this case so they don’t have to suffer the consequences for what they did. They are leading in directions that prove false time and time again on purpose because…well…

      Let me compare this to a poker game…something so characteristic of Aruba….if you find a player who will keep falling for your bluffs and still keep playing and losing while thinking they might finally be winning, what do you do? Do you get rid of that player? No! You keep them around for entertainment and a sense of power. (besides taking their money that is)

      I am so sick and tired of Natalee’s family being given the runaround! There can be no worse torment on earth than to have to lie down to sleep at night still not having your child somewhere you can put her to rest too, OR to at least know where she is resting. And I know, if she’s gone, she’s with God. That’s fine for the spiritual side, but as humans still bound to earth there needs to be a place ON EARTH to realize the End before Heaven. We need that closure. And to be denied that by such self-serving evil minded cold hearted poor excuse for a body with a heartbeat….Man! I probably should go start me own blog!

    40. disgustedmom on February 27th, 2008 1:59 pm

      LOL…that’s MY own blog, not Me own blog! I AM Irish, but I didn’t mean to let it show!

    41. always 1 on February 27th, 2008 2:07 pm

      no,EURobert, you dont understand…it is in english,…its in the Dutch blog where observer777 is telling them about being a sm and the facts she/he knows about that the case…
      SM: Observer is a moderator in the SM forum. All Observer is supplying that forum with information that we have had in the SM forum for a long time. (klaasend)

    42. always 1 on February 27th, 2008 2:18 pm

      the dutch blog is http:/

    43. Richard on February 27th, 2008 2:21 pm

      DisgustedMom, we know that Art Wood has long argued that Natalee’s body was put in a crab trap, taken out to sea, and dumped overboard.

      It seems that this particular trap, which Tim Miller was convinced, does not hold the answer. If it had, then beyond doubt some remains of Natalee would still be in the cage … or so I would think … at least part of the skeleton.

      So far, this doesn’t prove or disprove Art Wood’s idea. It only shows that this particular cage does not hold the evidence that was hoped.

      I’m not competent to say whether DNA would be preserved; the article I posted a while back said that the FBI compared the fabric that was found to the fabric of which Natalee’s clothing was composed. I imagine that they have the technical expertise to do this.

      As Katablog (#29) says, there are a lot of possible explanations about this cage and the missing piece of fabric. And as Bob (#19)says, this is only one of a number of targets that the Persistence has identified that need to be checked out.

      Based on what we’ve seen of Aruba over the last three years, is it likely that anyone is keeping count of how many missing crab cages there are?
      Has the report ever been confirmed, even, that a crab cage was stolen that night? Could that have been more misinformation or disinformation?

      This particular cage seems to have no answers for us. Let’s hope that answers will come soon.

    44. Richard on February 27th, 2008 2:26 pm

      Bob (#19) also points out that this cage seems to be too big for a small boat to take out to sea, especially with only one person running things.

      Let’s set aside for the moment the question of how much of Joran’s ‘confession,’ if any, we accept as true.

      If I remember, he doesn’t make any reference to a cage being involved … he just says that ‘Daury’ came over, they put the body in the boat, ‘Daury’ took it out to sea and threw it over the side.

      Please correct me if I’m wrong.

      Could it have been wrapped in a weighted tarpaulin or something like that? I don’t know … I’m just saying that the idea that her body HAD to have been put in a cage and taken out to sea might not be accurate. Let’s hope that we find out.

    45. always 1 on February 27th, 2008 2:35 pm

      sorry i cant type well…that number should be 1106880/7/50

    46. EURobert on February 27th, 2008 2:40 pm

      # 41 Always 1

      Okay, now I get it! You mean the NH “in the rebound”-forum on the site! But what should I look at on the 4th-thread?
      Looks okay to me what Observer is providing them with; she clearly knows about the ins and outs of the case.

    47. Richard on February 27th, 2008 2:47 pm

      EURobert … Observer is a ‘he’.

    48. always 1 on February 27th, 2008 2:52 pm

      didnt mean to step on anybodys toes..the posts most people make are just thoughts, ideas….he, the observer says his statements are facts….and he can prove them….thats all i meant..sorrry..
      SM: You aren’t stepping on anyones toes at all. Observer is posting the Witness and Suspect statements which are fact. There are many facts in the case. There are many interview comparisons where we can prove where Joran changed his story.

      Anyway, I just wanted you to know that we all in the forum are very aware of Observer posting at the FOK forum and several of the FOK forum Dutch members have joined the SM forum. They have been very helpful to us as well. (klaasend)

    49. EURobert on February 27th, 2008 2:56 pm

      # 47 Richard
      Ooops… Always thought he was a she… No offense… Thanks Richard!

      # 45 always 1
      Yes I had looked their already after you posted 11068807/50.

      But what’s the problem; that’s an old theory. Not one I believe though. (You mean the northern star comment?)

    50. EURobert on February 27th, 2008 3:06 pm

      Has anyone seen this article yet?

      Seems that Patrick is somewhat more of a criminal than he first wanted to admit. I’ll see if I can translate some of it.

    51. EURobert on February 27th, 2008 3:25 pm

      Translation of the above article in the Elsevier
      (Transl. Google and me)

      ‘Van der Eem lying about dark drugs-past’

      Wednesday, February 27, 2008 18:54

      The infiltrator who Joran van der Sloot elicited a ‘confession’ concerning the disappearance of Natalee Holloway becomes increasingly discredited. Patrick van der Eem turns out to have a dark past in the underworld. For example, the scar on his cheek is not the result of a “small brawl, but a feud in the criminal environment.

      That reports the weekly Panorama.

      Van der Eem already recently was been confronted with his past when he, on the road to a TV tour with misdaadreporter Peter R. De Vries, because of a drugs-conviction could not get into America.

      Panorama and Nieuwe Revu went even deeper into his past and found out that he (and in those magazins that is still possible) dealt in heroin and cocaine. He had hundreds of customers, says Nieuwe Revu.

      ‘He was also a lover of orgies in hotel rooms, where hookers and ordinary women were (censored…) by him and his friends, “says an anonymous source at Panorama.

      His scar he has not due to a small fight, as he puts it, but to a feud in the criminal environment. He would have betrayed some Kurdish Turks, who in turn got him back by giving him a “boca grande”. A boca grande ‘is a cut running from the corner of the mouth to the cheek, a well-known act of revenge in the criminal environment, when someone has betrayed others.

      Power ?Both magazines write that money, power and show are the big motivations for Van der Eem. Sources absolutely don’t believe that he helped De Vries because he considers it to be his civic duty.
      In Nieuwe Revu Van der Eem reacts through his spokesman Peter Schouten. He admits that Van der Eem was convicted for opiumdelicts (heroin). For the rest he refers to the book of Van der Eem, Disposed. “Patrick will be candid about his youth and his life in his book,” says Schouten in Nieuwe Revu.

    52. Rusty Bridges on February 27th, 2008 3:28 pm

      Yes, Tim is very much in need of rest. When will he take a break? Probably ever. You know what this man has been through. Please donate! Now comes the costly part. 1 down and 169 targets to go!

    53. Rusty Bridges on February 27th, 2008 3:36 pm

      Patrick has a criminal past? Say it ain’t so! You couldn’t tell by looking at this “business man”? Who cares? He is not the one yakin’ on hidden camera about a crime they committed. I’m surprised that thee “pimp” did not recognize the “boca grande” and keep to himself. Who else would have the stones to do what Patrick did?

    54. kaye on February 27th, 2008 3:47 pm

      #51 eurobert…..everyone has a past sir, a closet with skeletons in it of some sort. that is neither here nor there at this point. Patrick had the balls to do what no one else has even attempted to do, including aruban or dutch officials, he got a taped confession. period.(and don’t bore me with “yeah but he got it was under the influence of pot….blah, blah, blah) It’s done and it’s out there for all the world to see. everyone will make their own conclusion. thank you patrick and peter.

    55. Mike on February 27th, 2008 3:54 pm

      If Patrick was such a criminal he should have just taken an EXTRA LARGE needle of PURE heroin and shoved it up urine’s a$$ and then we would be done with him and on to his POS father.

    56. Carpe Noctem on February 27th, 2008 3:57 pm

      These people friggin’ KILL ME…

      They officially frown upon drug use or selling by
      Parick Van der Eem…

      Yet they excuse sexual predators, and gang-raping
      murderers like Joran Van der sloot and his father,

      I so hope LIKE EVERYDAY that somebody snipes
      Paulus & Joran, or burns their family home
      to the ground.

      They are a sickness that needs to be dealt
      with, out in the open and with full force.

      They make me wanna throw up!

    57. EURobert on February 27th, 2008 4:10 pm

      # 54 kaye

      Just thought I’ld show you that article. I think he did a great job as well and apparently he has served his time for his past wrongdoings.

      BTW. Have you all heard the “Joran-in-mental-hospital-news” yet? See the forum!

    58. Patti on February 27th, 2008 4:16 pm

      The first thing that came to mind was the little American boy who went missing a couple years before Natalee. He, too, disappeared without a trace even though it was thought that he had drowned. How many people, who have presumably drowned off the coast of Aruba, have gone missing without a trace? There have been alot of murders in Aruba and the fact that the Persistance has had 80-90 hits that still need to be investigated, is astounding!

      It may seem like BS to some, but an ocean search is a long and drawn out process. The fact that another crab trap was found with clothing and DNA is an encouragement and should be looked upon as a reason for hope for the Holloways, as well as any interested party. It shows that there may be a pattern to the way that the murderous monsters of Aruba dispose of the bodies that they don’t EVER want found.

      It is no wonder that Tim Miller doesn’t have the support of Aruba, or it’s businesses. They don’t want us looking off their shores and the fact that arms have washed ashore and carcasses have been found in the sand, right off the shore, is an indication why.

      There is something extraordinary happening in Aruba and Tim Miller, along with his crew, has the heart and the conviction to get to the bottom of it. We should be saluting them and showing our appreciation to their efforts. I know I do.

    59. EURobert on February 27th, 2008 4:19 pm

      The Telegraaf writes that Patrick was interrogated by the police in an investigation and there he supposedly started to talk.

      After that he got his “smiley” as it is called in the ‘milieu’.

    60. MissKatie on February 27th, 2008 4:26 pm


    61. MissKatie on February 27th, 2008 4:30 pm


    62. MissKatie on February 27th, 2008 4:34 pm


    63. maryd on February 27th, 2008 4:53 pm

      disgustedmom #39.

      That was so well said. Great post.

    64. Patti on February 27th, 2008 4:57 pm

      I see the skull in the pictures…

      and, obviously, the F.B.I. had to have

      something to test that would have D.N.A.

      An old piece of cloth, washed by the salt

      of the sea, would not produce any D.N.A.

    65. EURobert on February 27th, 2008 4:57 pm

      MissKatie on February 27th, 2008 4:34 pm

      The Joran-in-mental-hospital topic starts with a post of Klaasend, here (middle of the page):

    66. txchic on February 27th, 2008 4:59 pm

      has the Gottenbos’ boat ever even been tested for any type of dna?!?

      i don’t know if the arubans are operating on a shoe string budget or if they’re really this stupid…

    67. MissKatie on February 27th, 2008 5:00 pm


    68. maryd on February 27th, 2008 5:01 pm

      If Joran aka Moron is in a mental hospital than that tells me the search is going in the right direction. Preparation for his mental defense is in full effect and the Taco is advising him. Hope it’s true.

    69. MissKatie on February 27th, 2008 5:01 pm


    70. Lotte Lenya on February 27th, 2008 5:08 pm


      “…something so characteristic of Aruba….if you find a player who will keep falling for your bluffs and still keep playing and losing while thinking they might finally be winning…”

      I think our team deserves a little more credit. Louis Schaefer and John Silvetti are very smart men. They’re experts in their field. They’re not puppets. Schaefer’s not giving up a million and a half dollars to go on some crazy ass search that’s being run by aruba.

      I know all these guys are under enormous pressure and god bless them.

    71. hoepelman on February 27th, 2008 5:11 pm

      If Patrick likes to have orgies at hotel rooms, no wonder he and Joran hit it of so well. The fact that Patrick’s is being discredited doesn’t mean Joran is morally acredited. It just means that they are birds of the same feather. No surprise for me…I can’t imagine a straight, everyday working father and husband just volunteering out of the goodness of his heart. He did it for the money, the notoriety and perhaps to get a sense of self redemption, but his faults do not exculpate Joran from making the confession and living also a shady life.

    72. MissKatie on February 27th, 2008 5:23 pm


    73. hoepelman on February 27th, 2008 5:25 pm

      For those inquiring about potential ways of raising money for Tim Miller’s cause in the comments of in the Fabric Found On Crab Trap article previously posted, below are long shot possibilities for fund raising. The problem with Oprah is that her organization concentrates donations on “International Educational Initiatives”.
      The 50 Most Generous Philanthropists

      Unfortunately, not one of these organizations works for the cause of justice.
      Top 10 donors in America

      American Fedn of State, County & Municipal Employees
      AT&T Inc
      National Assn of Realtors
      American Assn for Justice
      Goldman Sachs
      National Education Assn
      Intl Brotherhood of Electrical Workers
      Laborers Union
      Service Employees International Union
      Carpenters & Joiners Union

      Maybe the American Association for Justice would be interested in the NH cause.
      Internacional Justice Program

      One of its purposes is to work in “the strengthening the U.S. government’s commitment to support, abide by, and promote domestic and international mechanisms of accountability.”

    74. Patti on February 27th, 2008 5:34 pm



      Aruba isn’t in charge of ANYTHING having to do with Tim Miller and Company and no one is falling for their bluffs, or those of Joran, either.

      Once a liar, always a liar… we will solve this case and find Natalee using our own intuition. Whether Aruba prosecutes anyone for the crime committed against Natalee is debatable… but the family will have their daughter back and a measure of truth and closure based on facts… not lies.

    75. J O Cincy on February 27th, 2008 5:58 pm

      If someone can get PM Nelson’s or Rudy’s attention, ask them to ready the following article. Althought it is embarassing to the US, it is how we handle a VERY bad situation created by an American citizen. Aruba should take notice and come clean to the world.


      I bet there will be a REAL investigation and JUSTICE is served.


    76. OFIR on February 27th, 2008 6:08 pm

      aruba seems to be one fishy island specialy after i red the story about the tv reporter and camraman who found dead ,is the aruban athority,gov,police,
      lost their soul?

    77. paulette on February 27th, 2008 6:12 pm

      I say… Bring that lobster trap up and examine the entire thing! Natalee could have been thrown in the trap naked or with a sheet around her, and whos skull is that if not hers?, is it really a skull? No one is telling the meantime I hope that everyone can contribute even a small amount for this cause., I want that man put behind bars, Urine, or whatever they are calling him nowadays, he dosen’t deserve to be walking the streets, except for in hell!

    78. Richard on February 27th, 2008 6:18 pm

      As someone, I think it was Geraldo Rivera, pointed out in an interview with Peter deVries, most informants usually aren’t priests or saints.

      They do tend to have checkered pasts, which is unfortunate.

      But don’t most crimes get solved by squealing?

      Whatever the failings of Patrick may have been, we know that Joran’s story didn’t change over repeated rides in the car.

      I know that one person thinks that Patrick was a plant by Aruba Tourism Authority. But I find that hard to imagine.

      Let’s hope that Patrick will be ‘redeemed,’ at least in our eyes, by what he’s come up with.

      And remembering the phrase from King Lear, “a dog’s obeyed in office” … right now I think he shines by comparison to Aruba!

      Patti, the young boy you’re thinking about must be Max deVries. No relation to Peter deVries that I know of.

    79. diverboy on February 27th, 2008 6:21 pm

      Joran seeking “help”….yeah right…sounds to me like Papa Sloot is laying the ground for a lawsuit against Peter for “causing his sporter emotional distress”….wait and see….Sloot going after the cash….what a joke.

    80. Richard on February 27th, 2008 6:29 pm

      If there is any truth to that report about Joran being in the psych hospital, the “big” media should pick it up soon enough.

      And if he’s in there by his own request, I believe, then that means he has the right to leave at any time. If he’s been committed, the situation is different.

      This is my understanding, anyway … very possibly wrong. And who knows, in Holland?

      Could be a ploy to keep out of the way … maybe he’s afraid that someone is going to serve him papers?

      And this may be the “reality” behind the report of his German trip. We’ll find out, I’m sure.

    81. hoepelman on February 27th, 2008 6:37 pm

      I agree with Richard. Maybe NH was wrapped in some type of tarp before being thrown in the water. And the beach story is not necessarily true, so the disposal vehicle may not have been a fishing trap. Maybe she was strangled for screaming at the v/d Sloot’s home, and was subsequently “packed” for disposal in something else other than a trap.

    82. OFIR on February 27th, 2008 6:38 pm

      just the thought that someone can do somthing like that to natalee is shivering me

    83. hoepelman on February 27th, 2008 6:39 pm

      If Joran is in a mental facility, he’s paving the way for an alternative defence vis-à-vis an eventual discovery of evidence on the part of Equusearch.

    84. Wolf Hunters on February 27th, 2008 8:37 pm


      just puked

    85. Wolf Hunters on February 27th, 2008 8:40 pm

      THIS CASE WAS OVER the minute JORAN confessed on video tape when he HAD NO IDEA he was being tape recorded that he had a hand in throwing Natalee away like garbage.


      i can give you numerous pieces of garbage from aruba most of them people that were involved in the cove up.



      GOT IT ?

      GOOD !

    86. Wolf Hunters on February 27th, 2008 8:41 pm

      HANS MOS is one of the BIGGEST LOSERS i have ever seen. when people see EVIL and dont do anything about it. THEY ARE EVIL also

    87. disgustedmom on February 27th, 2008 9:20 pm

      Art Wood…..she’s in a fish cage
      Dompig…..she’s in the water so don’t search the land
      Tim Miller…she’s in a fish cage
      Haunting Evidence….she’s ‘right here’ in the ocean.*points to map spot*
      Dr. Hodges….she’s in the ocean in a fish cage.
      Joran….she’s in the ocean.

      ALE….we don’t have money to search the ocean.

      Jesus Christ! Help!

    88. MY THOUGH on February 27th, 2008 9:27 pm


    89. SS on February 27th, 2008 9:29 pm

      Tim did say that he felt like the contents of the trap included a skull. For some reason the divers gave a thumbs down sign when they approached the trap. The picture in the forum sure looks like a skull to me. Klaasend reported that the photographs had come from an anonymous source. I hope that a friend of Jasper, amsterdam020, or yoyomuffintop didn’t send us some photoshop creations. The FBI said that the shirt and DNA were not a match for Natalee, but the DNA has to belong to somebody. The FBI is probably staying very quiet right now. There are numerous people that we have identified as missing from that hell hole and they are just the ones that we have learned about. I cringe at the thought of how many unidentified drug dealers and low lifes could be in fish traps in that ocean. Maybe the fish trap is our equivalent of cement shoes.

    90. MY THOUGH on February 27th, 2008 9:30 pm


    91. SS on February 27th, 2008 10:08 pm

      If Urine is in a psychiatric facility it’s probably to prevent him from being arrested or questioned. He’s most likely in a rehab program. Papa and Mama Ditch can’t deny that sporter has a drug problem after seeing Peter’s video. Even Taco used drug influence as a basis to invalidate the video contents.

    92. 10061906 on February 27th, 2008 10:09 pm

      Now I know I’m getting old. I can’t remember where I posted this


      FEBRUARY 22-24 — Caribbean Village at Boston Globe Travel Show, Boston, Massachusetts

      FEBRUARY 29 – MARCH 2 — A Caribbean Celebration at The New York Times Travel Show, New York;
      THAT IS THIS WEEKEND Jacob Javit’s Building

      MARCH 29-30 — Caribbean Village at Adventures in Travel Expo, Washington, DC

      JUNE 21-24 — Annual Caribbean Tourism Summit, Ronald Reagan Building and International Trade Center, Washington, DC

    93. nctripp on February 27th, 2008 10:21 pm

      I can’t help but think if dompig said “don’t
      serch the landfill, she is in the
      ocean” that he may have been worried about the
      land search. Wasn’t it during the landfill search that the ALE redirected everyone to the lighthouse.

    94. MY THOUGH on February 27th, 2008 10:55 pm

      that makes alot of sense.. they keep directing everyone to the ocean to keep em off course

    95. Ray on February 27th, 2008 10:57 pm

      Has anyone stopped to think that Daddy Sloot has TWO more little HELLIONS to take jorans place in the HOTELS,CASINOS and BARS of aruba. People keep you GIRLS AWAY FROM ARUBA IF YOU VALUE THEIR LIFE.


    96. jasper on February 28th, 2008 2:11 am

      Dear Scared Monkeys,

      Thursday morning, the Netherlands. Our main national news paper kicks in this morning with this :,1

      Let me translate for you :
      Joran van der Sloot has been sended to a Psychiatric Institute. He has gone nuts due to all the recent media attention and the threaths at his address.

    97. EURobert on February 28th, 2008 3:33 am

      This satiricle site has the news of Joran in mental hospital as well.

      Joran admitted to a loonies hospice

      Now you got your way? Joran (link) van der Sloot admitted himself into a psychiatric facility somewhere in the Netherlands. His family denies this logically in all modes, because soon there are more crazy people in front of the fence than behind it. In fact it all has taken some time. Because if you have a father who tells you to shut up, for months you drive dumb circles in a Range Rover and then you get all Dutch and American media on your back, that can be experienced as ‘some pressure’. So, Joran is flipped out, kookoo! Absolutely nuts, coño beep toot disturbed and gets medication, reports (link) his Aruban Bon Dia newspaper. Has ‘toff’ finally stuck to his promise. Joran has left (link) the Netherlands and now lives in La La Land (link ). Looking for something to read Joran? The – by us – highly appreciated Karin Spaink seems to be an enormous must … (link) (Columnist Karin Spaink recently was on Dutch tv telling how she talks with/helps (!!!) people who want to commit suicide, but was strongly critizised for the way she does that.)

    98. EURobert on February 28th, 2008 4:21 am

      One funny comment on the GeenStijl-article.

      Zondag aanstaande zit Joran in de uitzending bij Veter R. de Pies. Naar verluidt en zoals vermeld in de persaankondiging zal hij daar komen vertellen dat hij zelfmoord gepleegd heeft.
      Spinal Fap 28-02-08 @ 09:08

      Coming Sunday Joran is in the Show at Veter R. de Pies. It is rumoured that, and mentioned in pressreleases, that he will announce he has committed suicide!

    99. jasper on February 28th, 2008 6:36 am

      @ SS 91

      Joran a drug problem ? The possession and usage of Marihuana is legal in the Netherlands. In the Netherlands, we do not share the thought that marihuana is worse than liquor.

    100. Dolf on February 28th, 2008 8:39 am

      98: Heared the same joke

      our countrymen are always quick to make some money (we also have Joran ringtones)

    101. dgator on February 28th, 2008 8:52 am

      Okay just a thought about Urine being committed, what if Tim Miller and his crew has found something and the authorities know but are not telling the public at this time and so Urine’s attorney has advised him to do this. Or like someone else here has said he is getting nerverous thinking the next one could be NH.

    102. Lotte Lenya on February 28th, 2008 9:53 am

      @ #99 Jasper

      Um, actually marijuana is illegal in the Netherlands. However, the law is not enforced and is treated as a misdemeanor.

      “In the Netherlands, we do not share the thought that marihuana is worse than liquor.”

      That’s not exactly the case. The Netherlands feels that they can control the usage of marijuana more effectively with their lenient pot policy.

    103. SUPER DAVE on February 28th, 2008 11:30 am

      JASPER? the only time your boy has a drug problem is when it’s convienent to say so. say like when you confess to being involved in a murder, then you have a drug problem that causes you to lie.
      or like you taking up for him when the heat is on and saying drugs are legal so it was ok for him to lie about murdering and raping. we all know what’s up junior.

    104. benh on February 28th, 2008 12:41 pm

      eurobert,at least patrick is not a rapist and murder

    105. kaye on February 28th, 2008 3:18 pm

      #96 jasper… the words of nancy grace…..wha, wha, wha …boo-hoo.just another one of his endless attempts to avoid the truth and what will eventually come out………
      but it is sad that his own father,paulus vanderscum, started all the lies and he could have ended it all from the beginning by telling the truth and letting his son and whoever else was involved accept the consequences, pay their dues and be done with it…….

    106. brie on February 28th, 2008 10:24 pm

      Please refrain from posting Jasper….!!!!

    107. brie on February 28th, 2008 10:57 pm

      Why are there so many time changes on our postings..!!!

    108. SS on February 28th, 2008 11:12 pm

      #99 Jasper

      Parents of any kid who is sucking up as much marijuana and alcohol as Urine does, should justifiably be concerned. I didn’t even mention the frequency of photographs from Aruba where an underaged 17 year old continually has a drink in his hand. If you’re going to come on here and attempt to make annoying arguments, at least use some logic. Whether or not the Netherlands shares the thought that marijuana is worse than alcohol has nothing to do with whether Urine needs a rehab program for substance abuse.

    109. brie on February 29th, 2008 6:54 am

      Joran knew that closing time was chaotic…Natalee was out in the front of C&C’s trying to catch up with her friends…Joran offered her a ride to the hotel….

    110. Dolf on March 4th, 2008 4:12 am

      btw. weed/ hash can also cause an adiction

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