Man Drowns in Aruba and Washes Ashore … Why Didn’t Natalee Holloway, if she Drown?


Amigoe is reporting that a man, presumed homeless, was found dead and floating in the Aruba_man_drownwater near Bikker & Gomez at the L.G. Smith Boulevard in Aruba. So why is it again as some have tried to spin that if Natalee Holloway accidently drown in the ocean due to drugs or intoxication that she did not wash ashore as this man did? The answer is, if she had drown in that manner, she would have.

However, for some reason the laws of nature, currents and ocean tides are different for homeless men name Tomas and Zico than they are for an American teenager named Natalee Holloway in Aruba. We can also presume that Tomas/Zico was not at Carlos N’ Charles and was not seen leaving in a car with Joran Van der Sloot, Deepak or Satish Kalpoe. as he was later found in the water.

If someone was in such an impaired or intoxicated state they never could have gotten that far away from shore to drift away with the current. The waves would have brought them back. Of course if they were taken out into the ocean by a boat and dropped in the sea in a weighted cage, that is another story.

Fish cage

Amigoe; July 25, 2007: Man drowned  

ORANJESTAD — Around 11:00 yesterday, passers-bye noticed a body in the sea near Bikker & Gomez at the L.G. Smith Boulevard .  The police got the body out of the water and a doctor certified that the man was dead.  Based on the state of the remains, the man must have been in the water for quite some time already.  The identity of the drowned person still has to be determined.  No documents were found on the man, but it seems like he is a homeless man with the names Tomas and Zico.  He has been seen frequently in this area and used to sleep in one of the boats on the beach.  The cause of death will be investigated.


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  • Comments

    180 Responses to “Man Drowns in Aruba and Washes Ashore … Why Didn’t Natalee Holloway, if she Drown?”

    1. MIss-Underestimated on July 25th, 2007 10:34 pm

      I guess it blows the drowned theory right out of the water, huh.

      Looks like the spider is gettin caught in it’s own web.
      Aruba, land of liars.

    2. ayfit on July 25th, 2007 11:20 pm

      Ask the untouchables who lie because they have so much to hide.

    3. Carpe Noctem on July 25th, 2007 11:47 pm

      This is one of my works in progress…


      DEEPAK KALPOE, that gang-raping murdering

      little Aruban flea, in his own words.

      …if you don’t mind some blue language…

      Click on it, and give it spin!!!

      It is the top video. Thanks. -j4n

    4. joe bear on July 26th, 2007 12:39 am

      What can I say

    5. Fools Gold on July 26th, 2007 4:25 am

      No reasonable person ever considered Natalee Holloway to have been accidentally drowned. If she was put in the ocean she would surely have been put into the ocean far out to sea and weighted down which would have severely altered drift patterns.

    6. Observer on July 26th, 2007 5:37 am

      Strange that Joran would tell a teacher that she hit her head on a rock and drowned just a day after Natalee went missing..The sloots also called a friend in the North Carolina with same story …Why would they tell this story when they never got her help and she is still missing? They also confessed to there Lawyer Antonio Carlo what they did to her..How many times have the Van Der Sloots confessed?

      Paul van der Sloot said in a phone conversation with Peter de Vries that they had a lot to tell but they will not do that just now because of people involved who could be hurt by this information

      Antonio Carlo told Chief Prosecuter Karen Janssen that Joran Van Der Sloot plays a major part in Natalees dissapearance.

    7. Susan on July 26th, 2007 6:01 am

      Sounds all too familiar! The poor guy must have died from a cocaine/alcohol overdose causing him to drown :-( Investigation into his death? Highly unlikely!



    8. Richard on July 26th, 2007 6:29 am

      Let’s give credit where credit is due … all praise to that Aruban doctor who figured out that the guy was dead.

      And here we were thinking that Arubans, at least those who populate the official world there, seem to be the most inept creatures in the universe. This doctor proves otherwise: they pull a body out of the water, and he is able to figure out that the guy is dead.

      And most likely has been so for some time.

      Will miracles never cease? Maybe the doctor ought to challenge Oduber in the next election, promising to do better.

      For that matter, maybe the dead guy should too. He could run on the same pledge, and no doubt accomplish it.

      BTW, just from that photo … it gives me the creeps to think that the head is not visible. Another cave guy?

    9. Richard on July 26th, 2007 6:32 am

      Think anyone will try to pin Natalee’s disappearance on this guy?

    10. dennisintn on July 26th, 2007 8:00 am

      richard, you’re entirely correct about the campaigns, and pinning the disappearance of natalee on this poor dead man and figure out how they can pin the dead man’s death on beth.

    11. 10061906 on July 26th, 2007 8:15 am

      They noticed he was on fire and threw him in the water to put out the fire to save his life.
      But we did all we could/should…we take; credit we prevented him from burning to death.

    12. Miss-Underestimated on July 26th, 2007 9:03 am

      Paul van der Sloot said in a phone conversation with Peter de Vries that they had a lot to tell but they will not do that just now because of people involved who could be hurt by this information

      Antonio Carlo told Chief Prosecuter Karen Janssen that Joran Van Der Sloot plays a major part in Natalees dissapearance.

      Comment by Observer | July 26, 2007, 5:37 am

      Glad you brought this up. Anywhere else this would be called obstruction of justice, moreso when a “flawed judge in training” states this. Those statements are the epitome of this case. Right in your face.

    13. ayfit on July 26th, 2007 9:21 am

      Any word of a book signing of Beth’s book? [ LOVING NATALEE] I think we should all show our support and buy the Book for ourselves and as gifts.The Holidays are fast approaching.

    14. buster on July 26th, 2007 9:27 am

      Urin show up in aruba and anotherr guys is dead !!! urin must of been jonesing to kill someone for the last two years !!!

    15. Vicki on July 26th, 2007 9:39 am

      #8- Richard My goodness in all this time of posting this is by far the funniest yet, but unfortunatly its so sad…and true….Its so sickening to even see these pictures…It does look as though he is missing his head….
      Dennis, if they could pin this on Beth I bet they would try…they all make me sick..why so many drowning deaths on this freakin place…

    16. katablog on July 26th, 2007 10:20 am

      You are right #7. I’ll bet he overdosed, buried himself, moved himself a couple of times and then jumped in the water to get the sand off himself.

    17. Carpe Noctem on July 26th, 2007 10:29 am

      8. Let’s give credit where credit is due … all praise to that Aruban doctor who figured out that the guy was dead.

      Richard, you had me rolling on that one!LOL

    18. Brenda on July 26th, 2007 10:30 am

      Haven’t even read the posts yet, but a week or two ago I said I’d always wondered if the boys had tried to dump her in the water and she came back up….hence the day at the rocks on the beach. Otherwise, they moved her through there to bring her onto the boat to do so further out. That would also explain the day at the rocks as daddy Sloot would have needed to be certain NO evidence was left behind.

      One day we will know the truth…and what ever the actual events were….JVS will be at the epicenter.


    19. Carpe Noctem on July 26th, 2007 10:31 am

      More of Deepak Kalpoe in his words.

      (The Skeeters Tapes Remixed)

      >Episode # 2

    20. Brenda on July 26th, 2007 10:43 am

      Another thought, although it is rather morbid. (What violent crime isn’t?)

      Deepak made a comment to JVS early on when they were being taped in that van. It was “if they find the girl, they will see the sh1t.” He then alluded to JVS being in trouble for that.

      Well, several things here.

      1 – Deepak used the word “see”. This tells me something physical to see…not drugs or DNA evidence…something visible.

      2 – English is not Deepak’s first language, yet notice he knows enough of the language NOT to misuse a common word such as “see”. So he used a word that meant exactly what it is meant to mean…SEE something physical wrong with her.

      3 – We know Nat was slipped something (GHB we figure). The boys were obviously doing cocaine. That cannot be “seen”. I mean, if you were looking at someone who was still alive OR deceased that has or was in the process of, you’d know something was wrong, but couldn’t simply “see” it and determine from that.

      4 – Morbid part…I think that JVS may have caused Nat a head injury after she passed to help cover his putrid tracks should she be found. He could then use his lie hand in hand with the “evidence” he created as an alibi.

      One day….one day…truth has a way of finding a voice…


    21. disgustedmom on July 26th, 2007 11:07 am

      Wow, Richard….good observation about that man’s head. I’m betting he doesn’t have one.

      Looks like rigor mortis too…in which case the head would have been forward so….well, it’s just odd, isn’t it?

      Nice that they had a camera at the ready, isn’t it? Nice too that that cop-like-person knew he could grab that man’s hand and the skin wouldn’t come off it.

      Here’s a great FBI article about what happens to a body during drowning -and other reasons why a person might be dead in water. It’s long, but a very educational read.

      especially page 6 which starts here….

    22. disgustedmom on July 26th, 2007 11:19 am

      Brenda, #20….think tazer/stun gun while you’re thinking about ‘see the shat’.

      In some short passing I recall a gun being mentioned. Also, one of Joran’s friends (maybe Freddie or Jaime) was asked during his statement if Joran gave him anything to keep for him. Often times a stun gun is used in rapes. Jon Benet Ramsey had some marks on her body that were said to have been made by a stun gun. Tazers these days can be used from several feet away. They all leave highly identifiable marks.

    23. KrisG on July 26th, 2007 11:23 am

      Thanks Carpe! In Deepak’s own words, Natalee went into a car with 3 strange guys, strange as pecuLIAR, and they sure are. Just look at them: Frankenstein, Igor and the Village Idiot.

      Justice for Natalee Holloway!

    24. Donna on July 26th, 2007 11:35 am

      Sadly, Natalee is probably at the bottom of the sea, weighted down in the missing fisherman’s trap stolen from the fishermen’s hut. Early on, the police said there were NO boats that came and went from the island that night. I don’t believe that at all. There are so many small boats on the island, either fishing boats, party boats, ski boats, etc….
      I recall Equesearch found what they thought was a grave that had a body in it that had been removed. I also recall, they were reprimanded and told they disturbed a turtle’s nest…. Where the grave site was was NOT a site where the turtles come ashore to lay their eggs. I believe Natalee was in a shallow grave and then moved to another location, out to sea.
      Joran had many contacts that own boats and Depak probably did too. Aruba lies, Aruba is suffering financially, and they are getting what they deserve.

    25. dennisintn on July 26th, 2007 11:45 am

      #23, roflmao, you’re right. and these guys think we’re going to believe that people who look like they do can just pick up young girls in 30 minutes without drugging them? not in this lifetime.

    26. Brenda on July 26th, 2007 12:18 pm

      I did not know about the stun gun. Would make good sense. If any girl was heavily sedated and started to come to, she would not realize she was being shocked at all. What a creep! Probably would have done this for simply evil pleasure alone.

      Yeah, and I know he killed a pet. I had a neighbor boy who was a monster like JVS. (Still is) He used to kill baby birds whenever and I mean WHENEVER he could find them. He hunted for them. He was in 2nd grade with my daughter when he started doing this. His other hobby was to pick up a stick or bat and beat the tree in his backyard for sometime the entire afternoon! Yikes!

      By middle school, he had shot out 2 of our car windshields with a BB gun, but we could not prove it. By the time he was in high school. I could not lay out in the sun anywhere in the yard as he would boldly just stand there and stare…even if I reprimanded him!

      Well, in 12th grade, he and his girlfriend were arguing. He admitted he was “driving fast” to scare her when he crashed into a telephone pole and killed her. Did I mention he was drunk at the time and 17? Oh yea….his sentence? He had to go to her grave once a week for the duration of his probation until he was 21. Wonder who he will kill next?

      Another Joran…of course, his parents think he’s perfect. I finally called police over one of my broken windshields and did NOT mention the kid would watch me try to sunbath. Even so…HIS parents avoided all questions they could about their son’s BB gun and ranted I “strode around like a slut” in “no clothes”. REALLY!!??? I wore a one piece bathing suit and hid behind the fence. The kid would drill holes in the fence and watch. Apparently, according to his folks…my just being there encouraged him. Sound like the kind of parenting JVS received? Probably.


    27. mayan_moons on July 26th, 2007 12:24 pm

      lol Richard that was funny! I saved the pic yesterday to det a close up coz something did look…..lets say strange about the body but didn’t have time. Drowning victims don’t lose their heads that fast.

    28. mayan_moons on July 26th, 2007 12:25 pm

      Unless they are in Aruba…

    29. mayan_moons on July 26th, 2007 12:38 pm

      Vicki it is sickening isn’t it but oh so true that if there were a way to blame it on Beth…..they would! You mentioned on another thread that we should all get together when this nightmare is over, i’m sorry i didn’t respond till now but i’ve been sick and if that weren’t enough my other 15 yr old chihuahua migel died Sunday night & i buried Tues. morning. He was doing good and on Saturday night i think he had a lil stroke or something but he didn’t suffer and thats all that matters.

      Back to getting together…..i think its a great idea! I admire ya’ll so much for your loyalty and sense of right & wrong in a world of people constantly making excuses for the bad things they do. “The cocaine in my pocket isn’t mine”, I didn’t abuse the dogs my FAMILY did” and on and on and on.

    30. Susan on July 26th, 2007 12:54 pm

      # 16 katablog – There’s apparently a pattern here. The Arubans/Dutch wouldn’t have it any other way. Sad, but true…

    31. Susan on July 26th, 2007 12:57 pm

      # 3 Carpe – you be bad…LMAO!! I love it :-) Keep up the good work!!

    32. disgustedmom on July 26th, 2007 1:06 pm

      Yeah, Brenda #26, there are way too many parents who contribute to making monsters of their kids.

      Here’s a small story of my own…doesn’t compare to yours! but anyhow….a 7 year old neighbor girl who played with my daughter sometimes (I say sometimes, because the kid was such a brat I caught her several times with implements of destruction -a baseball bat one time and a golf club another time- coming up behind my daughter with these things poised to strike and after that she no longer played.)..anyway this kid told her mom my son -who was 12- knocked her off her bike and pushed her in a mudhole. My son supposedly did this while delivering newspapers in the rain that day. The kid’s mom came over and went balistic because the designer clothes her kid had on were a mess. Well, it just so happened that due to rain that day I had driven my son to deliver his papers in my car. And I knew for a fact he had not been outside alone that day on his bike or otherwise. When I told the mom this, she said ‘of course you think your kid can do no wrong’. I told her, no in this case your kid is lying and probably doing so because she knew you’d have a royal hemorrage over her messing up her desinger clothes.(this kid didn’t walk till she was almost 2 years old because her mom wouldn’t let her out of her stroller where she was strapped in wearing designer baby clothes most of the day) The mom’s answer to that was that her kid knew how she felt about her messing up her expensive clothes so she would have been careful and not have done anything that would have caused her to fall off her bike by herself, hence she had to have been knocked off it by my kid, and it had to have been my kid since no one else would have reason to be out in the rain except him to deliver his papers. (her kid had to ride home from a friend’s house in the rain).

      My point is, parents make messes of thier kids when they are afraid to tell they messed up on their own. Joran says Anita got pizzed off over him losing an expensive pair of flip flops. Anita raised a lying angry resentful youngster. End of story.

    33. jojo on July 26th, 2007 1:17 pm

      Hate to say it, but this drowning proves nothing. This body is not in the same location as Natalee, the time of the year is different, tides are different, the weather is not the same, the body weight and height are not the same. Just because one body floats back after being in the water does not mean that other bodies will. So many factors need to come into this discussion that aren’t.

      We had a situation where I live with 2 little girls drowning together(one tried to save the other). One was found in a few days, one was never found. They WERE the same size, drowning at the same time and location.

    34. Sharon Chicago on July 26th, 2007 1:19 pm

      I am waiting for Joran and the 2K’s to trip up…waiting for one of their accomplices to talk… I pray that they cannot sleep at nights…although that physco Joran probably has put it all on the shelf blaming his mother for not being home, therefore it was her fault…

    35. Miss-Underestimated on July 26th, 2007 1:33 pm

      I came back to look at this, I see Aruba’s CSI at it’s best.

      Similiar results with Natalee. It does not appear that this man has a rubber glove on the hand that he is using to yank the victim out of the surf. Wouldn’t you think more than one man would lift the victim from the water? What would happen to any evidence?

    36. mayan_moons on July 26th, 2007 2:02 pm

      Miss U i’m waiting for another slip up too…..i’m really suprised it hasn’t happened yet. Maybe the reason it hasn’t happened yet is coz we’ve been watching coz there is no one on Aruba they have to worry about to punish them.

    37. mayan_moons on July 26th, 2007 2:23 pm

      Hey Carpe!

      I just got a new sound card & got hooked up to hear your video’s YAY!~

      I love the latest video!

      You’re Da Man!~

    38. mayan_moons on July 26th, 2007 2:32 pm

      Oops i meant Sharon……i’m so excited to have sound again!

    39. minnesota dad on July 26th, 2007 2:34 pm

      #34…Joran and 2K have already tripped up!

      They confessed to the “something bad happened”. They have disclosed the “No Body, No Case” cover-up that Paulus Van Der Sloot arranged. They have openly argued with each other about what Paulus and Joran did to Natalee.

      The problem is….Aruba and now the KLPD want to erase these things from the past and say there is no evidence.

      Its a bad deal down in Aruba. As a tourist you can be kidnapped and killed and rather than expecting justice and protection you get swept under the rug.


    40. Miss-Underestimated on July 26th, 2007 2:43 pm

      Mayan….Yeah, maybe we should watch what is happening in Holland, near where all the little creeps moved to?

      Did someone say Joran is in Aruba? It’s around that time of the year too. Lot’s of tourists.

    41. mayan_moons on July 26th, 2007 3:18 pm

      Hiya MD!

      The secret audio tape is damning for the 3 stoodges and is all thats needed accompanied with all the circumstancial evidence to put these scumbags in prison. That conversation implicates Papa Sweat and the Aruban Court ruling against Paulus citing his interaction with Natalee on the night in question gives ample justification to bring this man to trial.

      First degree murder is what Carin Jansen charged these men with and to this day these men who planned and carried out the kidnapping, rape and murder of Natalee Ann Holloway walk free on Aruba with no restrictions to do it again. Its astounding to me that even 1 American (not laying down with these dogs) would set foot on that crappy island.

    42. mayan_moons on July 26th, 2007 3:30 pm

      Heck yeah Miss U…don’t think i haven’t thought about it a million times about the girls in Holland! Jipshit doesn’t like anyone telling him what he can & can’t do and i’m certain he harbors a deep resentment to our interfering with his drugging & raping young girls and is eager to continue committing those crimes. He KNOWS he’s being watched and has anger about that…..prolly seething inside and could explode in a rage under the least bit of extra stress. Whoever is near when that happens can just be swepted under the rug like Aruba did to Natalee on May 30, 2005.

    43. mayan_moons on July 26th, 2007 3:53 pm

      *swept rather


    44. Claudia on July 26th, 2007 4:03 pm

      Does anyone have a link to the interview where Paulus was sweating? I would like to see it again.


    45. Carpe Noctem on July 26th, 2007 4:27 pm


      20> Great observations!


      I definitely think a gun was used after the head injury.

      Possibly even after death, to make people think something

      else happened… there was some serious freakin’ out

      on the boys parts in all of this, no doubt!

      I pulled this image out of the 24 video. Some see what

      I can see, some can’t. BUT I SEE IT, I see it each and

      every time.

      pic focus #1

      and just below it

      hey buttheads,

      I see what you did to her… and it makes me

      mad all over again.

      The gun part will come out one day, I think.

      Hella fire to you all, perps…

      you left the human race behind

      that fateful night. Your quarter

      is runnin’ out soon. Grrrr

      Count on it! -j4n

    46. Carpe Noctem on July 26th, 2007 4:43 pm

      Thanks, Mayan and Susan =)

      Claudia, was it not that Diana Sawyer Interview, ABC?

      She said he was sweating like a big swiney hiney.

      … actually I said that! I think she said sumpin’

      more like he was sweating profusely, and dripping

      all over the table. Anita was manning the paper towel roll

      that day.

    47. Carpe Noctem on July 26th, 2007 4:46 pm

      Diana > Diane

      eek, sorry.

    48. mayan_moons on July 26th, 2007 4:57 pm

      I’d like to see that one too Claudia! I want to see the video of Jurine sliding into the front seat of a police car and he’s wearing a long sleeve white shirt. (sleeves to hide scratches, bruises & other marks) I DO think there were marks of a struggle under that long sleeve shirt coz i see claw marks on the left side of his face as the camera zooms in & Jurine looks right into it. I see 3 claw marks clearly….maybe 4 and there are claw marks on the right side of his face, just not as clearly distinguished as the right side. It looks like he used powder (courtesy of Guido) to camo the marks but its clear he has marks on his face and a bruise or two near the mouth.

    49. 10061906 on July 26th, 2007 6:20 pm

      mayan_moons: Maybe the scratches were from Guido who may have been jealous. Who knows for sure.

    50. 10061906 on July 26th, 2007 6:32 pm

      Aruban questioning techniques;
      Number one question:
      Were you with Natalee on May29-30 2005?
      No. Ok you can stand on the left
      Yes. Ok you can stand on the right.
      All you on the left can go.
      All you on the right; you can go too.
      But first it will be necessary to disinfect your brains so that you do not remember what you did with Natalee. Some of you will be able to leave in three days. Some of you may take up to 90 days. More if necessary.
      Arrested Date
      Johns 6/05/05
      Abram 6/05/05
      Joran VDS 6/09/05
      Deepak 6/09/05
      Satish 6/09/05
      S Croes 6/17/05
      Lorenzo 6/19/05 First Time
      PVDS 6/23/05
      Freddy 8/26/05
      Geoff VC 4/15/06 *
      Guido W 5/23/06
      Michael never Rumored T.B.A. 4/22/06 *
      AB never
      Keon never
      Sanders never
      Jaime never
      Santos never
      What ever happen to the rumor that Michael Dompig was to be arrested around 4/22/06.
      Wasn’t this about the time PAPA Dumpig started back pedaling?
      Notice it is 7 days after Geoff was arrested and one day before he is released.
      Michael had ratted on Geoff which caused his arrest. Geoff probably had a few tales to tell about Michael and Natalee that night.
      Tell me all these pimps are not tied together in this case.

    51. Maggie on July 26th, 2007 7:23 pm

      The one I remember about Paulus sweating is when Beth and Greta went to the VDS’s home and talked to Paulus and Anita. No cameras were allowed, but Beth said Paulus was sweating so much Anita had to get him towels. It was also during this interview that Anita described for Beth graphic sexual details. Greta said she wanted to crawl under the table.

    52. Maggie on July 26th, 2007 7:33 pm

      This man probably went to CnC and was picked up by 3 women. They took him to a side bar for a rum151, because thats what they like to drink. All at once he wanted to see sharks to they took him to the beach and left him because he had no condoms. He then overdosed himself on cocaine and drowned himself. However 2 security guards are being held, just in case.

    53. Claudia on July 26th, 2007 7:55 pm

      Hmmm I don’t remember who did the interview, but for some reason I can picture him in my mind sweating like crazy.

      Anyone watch NBC’s Dateline: To Catch a Predator? The other night they caught a guy (who of course was guilty) and was sweating like crazy throughout the interview.

      Sound familiar?

    54. Crioyo on July 26th, 2007 8:21 pm

      no time to read all the posts right now, but just wanted to say that the boat the guy was in wasn’t too far out in sea…it was right there in shallow water…the body fell in shallow water, and stayed there. the natalee theories say she was taken further out to sea….

    55. mayan_moons on July 26th, 2007 8:47 pm

      Its possible…..and also possible they hit eachother and was getting hit and scratched by Natalee.

      Some have suggested Guido was jealous of Jurine hooking up with Natalee & caused the claw marks on Jip’s face but i’m not sure about that coz as Jurine has told us “i’ve done this 20 times before” giving Guido ample time to be used to what would be happening if the punks were successful in drugging & separating Natalee from everyone. Why now would there be all this jealousy after knowing the drill once the signal’s been passed 20 times before. It just doesn’t fit to me.

    56. Janet on July 26th, 2007 9:07 pm

      ORANJESTAD – ..He has been seen frequently in this area and used to sleep in one of the boats on the beach.
      Amigoe; July 25, 2007: Man drowned
      There goes Julia Renfro and Gerald Dompig’s respective theories.
      Julia Renfro
      LA Times
      June 4, 2007
      “I’ve spoken with all of the suspects,” she said. “I don’t believe any of them did anything to her.” Heavily intoxicated, according to accounts later given by her classmates to the FBI, Holloway could have staggered into the sea and drowned after the local men left her, Renfro speculates. She might have died of alcohol poisoning or a drug overdose and washed out to sea, as Deputy Police Chief Gerold Dompig surmised in a CBS interview last year. She might have climbed aboard one of the dozens of catamarans and cabin cruisers moored off the beach for late-night partying after a concert nearby.

    57. mayan_moons on July 26th, 2007 9:15 pm

      I remember seeing him sweat like crazy too but it was not Greta’s interview with he and Anita but a morning show on abc or something. Still very telling to watch.

    58. disgustedmom on July 26th, 2007 9:27 pm

      Speaking of getting lost in the water….does anyone remember the Max de Vries story?

      He was 14 at the time he went missing in Aruba. His dad had died like about 2 years before Max disappeared. They were from Michigan I think…anyway the mom said the trip was to relax after a couple years of getting back on their feet after the dad died. While staying at La Cabanna a male guest- more the mother’s age I think if not older than her too- befriended Max feeling sorry for him not having a dad anymore. The man rented 2 jet skies and took Max out, but only the man came back. The man claimed Max fell off his ski but he was never found.

      I’m so sorry, but sometimes I think ‘the hotels’ know who is coming and what the weakness might be that would make certain persons an easy target to abduct.

      Interesting that Charles Croes headed straight to La Cabana to see if Natalee was there, but he never really went according to him. He started to, but changed his mind and went to the lighthouse.

    59. yoyo muffintop on July 26th, 2007 9:34 pm

      Yeah, she was drugged by Joran. Sounds so much better when “drugged” is involved. Forget about what her friends say, couldn’t possibly have just been drunk. Again, why the insistence on “drugged”? No one seems to be able to answer that. Strange.

      Lee Broughton:
      On Saturday, May 28, 2005, HOLLOWAY got very intoxicated and eventually had to be escorted back to her room by KEVIN BRODAY….
      During the morning hours on Sunday, May 29, 2005 HOLLOWAY started drinking mixed drinks called “Red Fires”. The drinks contained Bacardi 151 and diet coke. HOLLOWAY became intoxicated and her friends told her to slow down. HOLLOWAY and BROUGHTON continued to drink throughout the day. They went to dinner between 6:00 and 7:00 p.m. After dinner HOLLOWAY and BROUGHTON went to the Hotel Casino to watch RUTH MCVAY gamble….
      At about 8:40 HOLLOWAY switched to a mixed drink containing Vodka….
      At approximately 10:45 p.m. HOLLOWAY and other girls from the group started doing body shots on the bar….

    60. Patti on July 26th, 2007 10:35 pm

      Yo Yo!!!

      I don’t think that she was drugged, either… but what
      difference does it make? She wasn’t being herself when
      she left the bar that night. She left with people that
      she rarely knew, which was out of character for her. I
      suppose that is the reason that some people think that she
      must have been under the influence of drugs… that, with
      the fact that there had been other reports of drugging
      of American women in bars, especially, the bar that she
      was in that night.

      Again, we can split hairs on anything and everything; but
      there is no denying the fact that Joran Van der Sloot
      admitted killing Natalee, led the Police to her body, and
      is still missing.

      Drugged or not she was deceived, tricked and taken advan-
      tage of and there is no excuse good enough for that. What’s
      more is that there is no excuse for re-vicimizing her for
      the things that she could have or should have done that
      night. Besides, who knows, even if she had not been
      drinking at all, or was not drugged at all; you know as well
      as I that if you are being targetted by someone, they are
      going to get you no matter what the circumstances.

      It breaks my heart that you, being a woman, would want to
      split hairs on such a mute point, knowing full well that
      women are abducted off our streets, from their cars, from
      parking lots and even from their own homes daily. And, you
      have been around long enough to know that if this crime had
      of been committed by anyone else, a black security guard,
      a chollar or even just an average Joe; Natalee would be
      home with her family and the one responsible would be
      sitting behind bars. You, of all people, should be totally
      disgusted with the disparity in power shown towards the
      Van der Sloots, who were willing to throw anything or
      anyone in the way in order to protect their precious son.
      The Kalpoes, the security guards, the sharks, the ocean
      and even her own drinking… along with rumors of drug
      use has been thrown at us. They have managed to ruin
      everyone’s lives, livelihoods and reputation for only one
      thing… that their son be looked upon as an innocent, held
      above the reach of the law.

      We all have our theories, and who really cares who is right
      in the end. What is important is that the truth be known.

      Favoritism, toward anyone when it comes to the law; when
      it comes to our civil liberties or when it comes to
      determining right from wrong is somthing to be avoided;
      just as bias is as well. Joran Van der Sloot is no better
      than anyone else and ,if he committed a crime against
      Natalee Ann Holloway, as we know he did; he should be
      punished according to the law, not according to a secret
      code of political power.

    61. yoyo muffintop on July 26th, 2007 10:51 pm

      #48 mayan – “(sleeves to hide scratches, bruises & other marks) I DO think there were marks of a struggle under that long sleeve shirt coz i see claw marks on the left side of his face as the camera zooms in & Jurine looks right into it. I see 3 claw marks clearly….maybe 4 and there are claw marks on the right side of his face, just not as clearly distinguished as the right side.”

      mayan – how is it possible that someone who was drugged on ghb/roofie(Drowsiness, dizziness, loss of motor control, lack of coordination, slurred speech, confusion) could have clawed and bruised someone as bad as you say. How is that possible?

    62. Patti on July 26th, 2007 11:07 pm

      Yo Yo:

      I’m not Mayan, but I will tell you that I think the story
      about her being in the back seat going in and out of
      conscienceness was a lie perpetrated to try to blame
      Natalee’s death on an over-dose and to make her look like
      a slut, too.

      There was no petting in the back seat of that car and in
      my opinion the attack that resulted in the scratches on
      Jorans face took place at the rocks where she fought with
      him and was shot in the chest.

    63. mayan_moons on July 26th, 2007 11:11 pm

      I differ in that i do think Natalee was initially drugged to get her out of the club & away from everyone else but never felt she went into a coma & later died. Carin Jansen helps out my theory with the charges of *heavy battery*.
      I’ve said before……ya don’t have to battery an unconcious victim.

    64. Libby on July 26th, 2007 11:26 pm

      Amen MD!!!!! #39

      They have the evidence….but they will do nothing.

    65. Patti on July 26th, 2007 11:50 pm


      How long do you think Natalee was alive after leaving
      the bar?

      I don’t think that it was that long. I think that she
      was dead when Paulus said that he picked them up and
      dropped her off at her hotel. I think that Joran had
      already killed her by 4 a.m. and was working on an
      alibi when he said that Satish had come back to pick them
      up when, in reality, it was Paulus who had picked Joran up.
      I think that he told his father that Natalee had drowned and that it was not until his confession that Paulus came to realize that Natalee died of a gun-shot wound.

      I also believe that it could have been Satish’s gun that
      they had stopped at the bar to retrieve that night on
      the way to the lighthouse. I don’t think that Satish or
      Deepak were there at the time of her death, otherwise,
      there would have been no need for Paulus to go pick him
      up. The only reason that I believe this is because of
      what was said in the back seat of the squad car where
      Joran asks Satish if the police had retrieved his gun
      during the search of his house.

      We all have our own theories but one thing that we all
      have in common in our desire to know the truth, have justice
      served and have Natalee returned to her homeland.

    66. mayan_moons on July 27th, 2007 12:23 am

      No arguement on that…..we want the truth and her remains returned. I can see these scumbags practicing with dosage & escalating their assaults, maybe not being as satisfied *gag* just raping an unconcious victim. We hear Jurine has an anger management problem, someone who likes inflicting pain be it his brother’s, the family pets. Someone who likes to see fear in the eyes of his victims. Its been said this could all be a revenge thing coz Natalee snubbed some of them. Even that Natalee was slapped on a previous night…..which strikes me odd that Natalee would be struck and not report it to the police or call her mother about it but i can definetly see her rejecting these goons & them wanting revenge.

      I feel she was killed by a gunshot not only from the convo in the police car where they’re speaking of a gun but that i like Carpe think i see a gunshot wound to the forehead of who we believe to be Natalee in that tarp. Also that another skull at the rocks area that clearly is NOT Natalee with a gunshot wound to the temple. This other poor soul’s skull is in the same tarp as Natalee…..2 skulls…..visable gunshot wounds in each of them only in different places. I’m very familiar with guns and gunshot wounds & thats what they look like to me.

    67. yoyo muffintop on July 27th, 2007 12:28 am

      #63 – she also charged the security guards with suspicion of murder and kidnapping.
      So, she was already feeling major effects of the roofie/ghb before she left the club because that was the only way they got her to leave and away from her friends (“Natalee was initially drugged to get her out of the club & away from everyone else”). How then does she have the physical ability to claw and bruise as you say. How? That makes no sense.
      Or maybe you really didn’t see any of these scratches. ‘Cause that would contradict your drugged theory if you did.
      Looks like you made an “oops” mayan.

    68. mayan_moons on July 27th, 2007 12:36 am

      As for timing i feel like she was killed before the sun rose that morning but exactly when i’m not sure.

      But the Premeditated 1st degree murder charges Carin leveled at both Sloot’s leads to 2 different scenerio’s.
      premeditation can be made in the snap of a finger & it could be that Natalee was coming to and aware of what was happening to her and who was doing it & threatened to report them & press charges OR that she was being raped at gunpoint and the last being they planned to kill her from the get go. The first & second are more likely to me, the second choice even more so given Jurine’s anger problems.

    69. mayan_moons on July 27th, 2007 12:37 am

      oops….i meant 3 different scenerio’s……not 2

    70. mayan_moons on July 27th, 2007 12:43 am

      Scenerio 1 is still a good possibility to me once i saw Paul chatting up Natalee at the casino but i think it was Jurine not his father who pulled the trigger.

    71. yoyo muffintop on July 27th, 2007 12:54 am

      Patti – “We all have our own theories but one thing that we all have in common in our desire to know the truth, have justice served and have Natalee returned to her homeland.” Very true.

      One of the disappointing things is that the family might have been able to get some answers with the wd suits except that, in the case in New York, apparently it was too much of a $$$ burden on the taxpayers. The US has let the family down as well, don’t you think?
      From Judge Kapnick’s motion to dismiss:
      “the taxpayers of this State should not be compelled to assume the heavy financial burden attributable to the cost of administering the litigation contemplated when their interest in the suit and the connection of its subject matter to the state of New York is so ephemeral”

      and btw – if I was not a woman would spitting of hairs bother you as much? Just curious…

    72. mayan_moons on July 27th, 2007 1:50 am

      No i see the marks on his face and i don’t claim to know exactly how long the blackouts last, depends on the potency of the drug and the person its given to like any other drug.

    73. Carpe Noctem on July 27th, 2007 4:42 am

      Yeah, she was drugged by Joran. Sounds so much better when “drugged” is involved.

      Yeah Yo-Yo, because all normal people go from dancing

      to unconscious and getting fingered by pervs in the back

      of a tricked out Honda within thirty minutes… it’s

      the ARUBAN CARLOS AND CHARLIES WAY. Makes sense. Joran

      Van der sloot, the gang-raping ARUBAN-DUTCH SEX PREDATOR

      gave us play by play on that one IN THE a.l.e. files.

      slightly O/T


      Hey did, the Kalpoes mother and father ever clear

      up those child molestation and child neglect charges from

      1984? Nobody has cleared that up yet.

      What’s up with that?

    74. Carpe Noctem on July 27th, 2007 4:57 am
    75. Richard on July 27th, 2007 6:09 am

      We can’t prove anything about drugs at this stage, one way or the other. We DO know that Dennis Jacobs himself told Dave Holloway that drinks at C&Cs are drugged.

      (By the way, has anyone thought about the implications of this remark? Not only that a police official is fully aware of what goes on at that bar, but that he cautions a man … and Dave H. is pretty big … to be careful.

      It appears that the victims might not be limited to young girls. We remember the tale about the American man and wife who were drugged in a casino, and the wife was taken out to the desert and raped. We know that men were shanghaied in seaport towns earlier in history … apparently Portland, Ore., has a network of underground tunnels where drugged men were kept for sale as sailors and women were drugged and shipped as … well, that’s obvious.

      So the mind boggles at the possible implications, from robbery up to anything.)

    76. Richard on July 27th, 2007 6:13 am

      But what I meant to say is: whether Natalee was drugged, as most of us believe, or whether she wasn’t isn’t the issue.

      The issue is: what happened to Natalee Holloway? Some people have the answers, and we know who they are.

      Meanwhile, our government turns its head and pretends that everything is business as usual ….

    77. Richard on July 27th, 2007 6:15 am

      While we’re talking, one thing about this drowned guy.

      The article says “he had the names Tomas and Zico.”

      Does that mean his name was Tomas Zico, or maybe the other way around? Or did he use two or more names as a matter of course? If the latter, why?

    78. 10061906 on July 27th, 2007 7:35 am

      Can anyone explane why the ATA has an office in Minneapolis MN?

    79. 10061906 on July 27th, 2007 7:39 am

      Richard: my question is if he was nude and partially decomposed and had no ID and was homeless
      (On one happy island)
      how did they manage to ID him so fast?

    80. Carpe Noctem on July 27th, 2007 9:34 am

      I wish somone would knee him in his Cinnabun

      and buy his a$$ a RED FIRE!!!!

      I am so RED FIRED OUT out of it.

      That is how I think

      it may be Joe, only Jack Tacopino belabors the


      that have been covered, and laid to rest.

      BECAUSE HE HAS *** NOTHING *** to use to

      defend JORAN THE SEX PRED aka

      “The Aruban Rapist Sergeant Slaughter”

      AS A CLIENT. (and why is Joe still speaking for him?)

      Track the cash flow.

    81. Crioyo on July 27th, 2007 11:13 am


      He was a choller, some of these homeless people have been around so long that they have nicknames next to their original names. The police knows them as well. They hang around the same places, they sleep in the same place. Zico slept in the boat for example..

      I’ve heard the name ”zico” many times, used in jokes etc, but i think his real name must’ve been Thomas. There was also ”Sandman” who was always covered in sand, there’s ”Mary” who never wore panties, ”manolo” who was gay, ”Benjamin” etc etc. And they tend to have stories, something weird they always do, or something about how they behave.

    82. disgustedmom on July 27th, 2007 12:09 pm

      Yoyo is back again?

      Look yoyo….there are clearly 2 camps as this case goes. On the one side we have those of us who would never harm an innocent person nor leave them hanging if they were in trouble. On the other side, there are those who would initiate harm to an innocent other and/or ignore a person in distress. It is human nature to side up with your own views, morals and ethics.

      On this board we are in group 1. You, yoyo, are clearly in my opinion in group 2 and need to make this all Natalee’s fault as you would if you had done something wrong to someone -blame the victim to justify your skewed, self-serving idea of right and wrong.

      Let me coin a Joran supporter phrase….Natalee is innocent until proven guilty….she is innocent of being drunk…..she is innocent of having injested drugs voluntarily….she is innocent of having perverted sex with Joran etc. Her voice has not been heard on the subject of her disappearance, and absolutely no evidence has been brought forth that would conclude anything about anything she did that night that as over-the-top and out of the norm for partying in Aruba.

      Karin J’s reasons for arresting the suspects….as I understand it she could do this simply by reason if someone said certain things that led to certain suspicions. Then as I understand it that person would be hauled in to find out more and let go if ALE could not find proof to back up the claims made against them. HOWEVER, how do we even know what was told to Karin J or ALE was the truth? How do we know someone didn’t lie about ‘heavy battery’ etc. How do we know all these things the suspects were taken in for were not just a ruse to lead the investigation down a deliberate path away from the real course the night took?

      All the things Karin ‘charged’ in order to arrest the suspects are quite conveniently of no use without a body. Like Paulus said, no body…well, you know how the rest goes. So who’s to say the information that led to rape/battery/burying etc wasn’t a misinformation plan conjured up around the pool? Maybe to lead away from the real story that Natalee was sold. Hmm?

      Here’s my main reason for hanging onto the Sold theory….Joran is way too quick to want to talk about what sexual things he did with Natalee. And they are irrelevant to the real issue, that being WHERE IS NATALEE NOW? There is no need at all for any talk from Joran about anything that did NOT cause Natalee to go missing.

      I’ve got words about what I think about Anita and her unnecessary discussion of what Joran said he and Natalee engaged in too. I’ve got a real problem with that woman’s motives in deliberately hurting Beth by repeating those things to her about her daughter. And all of my thinking about Anita evolves around the obvious….Anita wanted to hurt Beth by making Beth suffer though such intimate gossip about Natalee that was SO unnecessary. Anita wanted to hurt Beth, not help her by being ‘kind enough’ to speak with her. Anita is passive-aggressive, IMO, and a real ‘sheep in wolves clothing’. For all we know Anita could be involved in holding Natalee hostage as some sex slave for some perverted things P could like that Anita won’t give in to.

      Why the heck would Joran tell Anita that crap anyway? And why would she listen to it? What the heck is she, a porn freak getting off on the sex stories of others?

      Maybe the whole family is porn obsessed.

      More about Anita…so she was in Holland. So Paulus had to come home on an earlier flight. So Anita was not there when the shat actually went down. Hmph. Talk about convenience….an alibi for the real perp? Could it be Anita who instigated this whole thing with Natalee? Or could her trip have been calculated around a kidnapping for sale?

      It’s just too weird to me that Anita was gone….at first it being said that her two younger sons were with her, and of course so was Paulus until the last day of Natalee’s trip when he comes home early and ended up at the HI. Then the younger ones were not with her, they were with friends. Why the change in locations for these 2? OK…I’m getting off my point….which is this…..Holland is one of the big places for prostitution both street and sex slave sales. Could Anita have been there arranging a deal that Paulus went home early and solidified after hearing from Joran that all was on track? Was this a family affair?

      I have lots of questions surrounding Anita. She was way too gleeful at that press conference as if it was all about her and not some poor child being missing.

    83. Brenda on July 27th, 2007 12:25 pm

      Dear #32…actually, in my opinion your situation WAS as bad as mine. Just so happens the little girl was not old enough to cause as much trouble. I think it is because girls are basically “stealth” when they are evil (plan to be mean to cause mental pain), boys tend to be violent (plan or act out physical violence).

      I am sorry your son had to go through that. I also agree the mother is destroying that child.

      I’m thankful you have a good relationship with your son…and proud of you to have answered that lunatic woman as you did. Sadly, well placed advice is certainly like a poison arrow to your lovely neighbor. Isn’t that how it works?


    84. Brenda on July 27th, 2007 12:26 pm

      #33…JoJo, I think I remember that story unless I am confusing it with one of two boys that drowned over the same issue (one saving the other). How sad.


    85. Richard on July 27th, 2007 1:31 pm

      DisgustedMom, I haven’t thought much about the idea of Anita’s involvement. It’s a good angle that deserves some consideration.

      On another thread there’s talk about the differences between female and male ways of dealing with things. One poster said that females tend to be more calculating, less direct than males (I’m rephrasing slightly).

      Another factor to consider: a mother’s feelings. I think it’s clear that this whole family, at least judging from what we’ve seen of it, is somewhat abnormal. I’ve speculated before that Natalee might have come out of a drugged stupor before anyone had thought that she would, or that she had been held captive on Aruba, or on a boat, for example, for some time.

      Maybe someone had the idea of trying to sell her, for reasons we’ve discussed before. Anyway, I think it’s clear that IF Natalee did “come to,” she would have been a different kettle of fish to handle than the Aruban girls.

      She wouldn’t have been intimidated by threats about how important Paulus is, what he could do to her family, etc.

      But the point is: would a mother’s concern for her son (Anita’s for Joran) allow her to take part in disposing of a “threat” in this way? Might she have some psychotic viewpoint about this foreign “slut” being in a position to have her dear little sporter put in jail?

      I don’t know. But I think it’s an idea to keep in mind.

    86. Patti on July 27th, 2007 2:02 pm

      D.M. #82:

      Doesn’t it make you wonder HOW Anita would have known
      what color Natalee’s underware was? Did she really
      know? Were they really blue, or did it have more to do
      with the fact that there was a pair of pink underware
      found near the Lighthouse?

      What kind of investigation was being run when they use
      a witness to the color of a woman’s underware that was
      not even present, much less in the country, when the
      crime was committed?

      Yo Yo:

      Doesn’t matter to me if you’re man or woman, but I think
      that women usually are more sensitive to the effects of
      victim bashing on the family. We’ve had this conversation
      before and you know how I feel about it. You also know
      that I feel that the Judge in Mr. Paulus knew damn well the
      edge that can be earned from painting a picture of an out of
      control, drunk, nasty victim. It is obvious from the things
      that he told the Kalpoes and Joran to say about Natalee that
      it was his stragedy from the beginning.

      All I’m saying, respectfully, is that you’re smart enough
      to see through it. A nasty girl doesn’t slap a boy in a
      swimming pool for getting fresh. There is NOTHING anywhere
      in her actions during the time that she spent in Aruba, nor
      during the many years that she spent in the U.S. to indicate
      that she was anything more than a nice girl encaptured in
      a snare that cost her her life. Natalee wasn’t street
      smart and the plan that Joran Van der Sloot had for her
      was something that had never crossed her mind.

      If you want to hold Natalee responsible for her actions the
      day that she went missing, then hold her responsible, as
      well for the other days that she had lived as well. Give
      her credit for the good, as well. Let’s take a realistic
      view of this young lady, Natalee, and be fair in our assess-
      ment of her.

      P.S. Have they ever found the parents of that child that
      the Police say was recovered at the rocks? What have they
      done with HIS body? Do you see any signs of him in the
      video? He was supposed to be dead and buried for over a

      Oh and one more thing: How is it that he is found
      at a site where Joran Van der Sloot said was the place that
      Natalee could be found? Do you think there ever was a
      young boy, if so, I wonder what Joran may have done to him?

      Natalee is not the first and, unfortunately, she won’t be
      the last.

    87. disgustedmom on July 27th, 2007 2:35 pm

      Joran says….this would not have happened if mommy had been home.

      That is such BS! Mommy was fine with Joran having girls sleep in his bed at his apartment. Mommy was fine with Joran drinking and gambling underage all those other days before Natalee was ever on the island. Mommy was fine with Joran being a womanizer….I guess that proved he was a man which made mommy proud to think he might not be such a delicous sporter after all. No way would Anita having been home stopped Joran from doing whatever he wanted to do. I mean, he knows all he has to do is give Anita three thick kisses and she’s putty in his hands.

      I’m inclined to believe, as that Dr. said, the clues to this case are in what is NOT being said directly…in other words, you take what Joran et als say and reverse/twist it to think about it other ways in other contexts because what he says has meaning but along a different route than the obvious one assumed. Such that….

      … if Joran says this would not have happened if mommy had been home, it could really something else, like if Anita had not been in The NL-been home in Aruba- she would not have been making book to have Natalee kidnapped and sold; as if someone had to travel to The NL personally so none of this would have a paper trail.

      Anita deserves discussion, for sure! She is so darn cocky about her sporter being so cool all the while she has him seeing a shrink for multiple behavioral and personality issues? This woman contradicts herself. Seems she likes Joran’s behavior just fine as long as he’s not stealing money from her purse or hurting her other sons.

    88. Brenda on July 27th, 2007 2:49 pm


      I am glad to say my husband is NOT like his mother…but his sister IS. Between my mother and sister-in-law, you can bet your life they are the most PERFECT human beings on the planet…just ask either one of them!!

      Anyway, been married 23 yrs. and have observed these 2 at as much distance as possible for longer than that. Here’s an example. When first married, my husband and I got into financial trouble and had to move in with his mother and sister for a short time. I was handed a bunch of chores (dishes, laundry, floors, bathrooms, etc.) Guess what my sister-in-laws chores were? She didn’t have any.

      One night I was up until 11pm and had just finished cleaning the kitchen. Around 1am, 16 yr old sister-in-law gets home with 17 yr old boyfriend. They put in a movie, turn it up loud…go into the kitchen and make a spaghetti dinner. I asked around 2am they turn down the TV and only received nasty stares.

      the next morning, the kitchen was horrible. They put the plates in the sink with leftovers still on them and didn’t even take the full pots off the stove! I was not going to double-clean up after her and left for work. Guess who mother-in-law reprimanded? If you actually need the answer from me…it was I who was apparently the “bad guy” in this. I had to understand that my sister-in-law was too tired and it was my job to clean the kitchen. I was then also reminded I could have done such a “small number of dishes by hand” and “shouldn’t use the dishwasher so much”.

      Oh yeah…did I mention mommy always ironed little baby girl’s clothes? Today, she and her children are horrific monsters. Talk about devils!!! The whole family is corrupt. Yet, they go to church and look down their noses at everyone.

      Richard, an evil and unGodly mother is not concerned if her child did wrong. They do not care!!!! Can’t you see they are “above all of that”? (being sarcastic)

      You are a good poster. don’t always agree 100%, but I am not always right either. On this subject, you and I are certainly on the same page.

      Have a good weekend everyone.


    89. Maggie on July 27th, 2007 3:08 pm

      Mayan this was the one of Paulus and Anita where Paulus was sweating, can’t find the video on the page anymore though. It was on this one where Anita was laughing when she said he put the girl on the beach.

    90. Maggie on July 27th, 2007 3:34 pm

      YoYo this is Natalee Sunday night walking into the casino, she doesn’t appear to be so intoxicated she needs help walking.

      On May 28th Natalee had to be escorted back to her room. Guess what, she made it back to her room fine with no problems, no wanting to see sharks, no saying she lived on a plantation with slaves, no talking about her mom being related to hitler, no wanting to stay somewhere like a dark beach alone at 3am, no getting into cars with 3 men. If she didn’t engage in that behaviour when she was that intoxicated, why would we believe she did the next time? Why in all the crowd leaving did Joran take her to another bar in the place, when people are going in all directions leaving and order her a straight rum151. Her friends have her drinking rum151 and diet coke. Why if someone was that intoxicated would you order them one of the strongest drinks in the house. Read the blood alcohol content list and the behaviour that goes with different levels. How could she be so drunk that night , yet go walking up and down the beach as Joran said talking and holding hands and all the sexual talk he has them engaged in. Then he has her falling asleep.Previous to that statement he has her doing fine, she knew what she was doing. No logic what so ever. Her behaviour that night was totally different then the night she had to be escorted back to her room by a friend, but it didn’t change until those 3 arrived. Dave said some of them witnessed for 25 dollars they pull out different bottles from behind the counter for some girls drinks. Don’t tell me that someone who went out that night behaving like a predator breaking the laws, wound up the night acting like Billy Graham and had to go home due to a moral attack.

    91. disgustedmom on July 27th, 2007 3:51 pm

      A quick word about empathizing….not to be confused with symapthizing….empathizing means putting yourself in someone else’s situation and feeling what they are going through. It’s more than just being sympathetic. And that is what the VDS family has missed in this case….

      They like to say they are sorry for Beth’s situation and for Natalee blah blah….but they clearly don’t empathize with Beth or Natalee because they display no remorse for the sadness and tragedy of the situation no matter if they were involved in it or not. (I only say, ‘or not’ for effect, since I personally think they were involved) They laugh and party on and brag about their sporter and tell Beth horrid things she does not need to hear.

      Where am I going with this? Here….for a person to be able to lie and manipulate others and commit crimes against others, they can’t have the ability to empathize with other human beings’ feelings or else they would not be able to do the rotten things they do to others. If we take that in reverse, then when we see people who don’t empathize (and clearly go the opposite way) over such horrors as a child being missing we can safely assume said persons would be able to commit horrors against their fellow human beings (and animals and property).

      The VDS’s have shown me they are this sort of persons.

      They are not being defensive. They are being cold!

      God only knows what they put Natalee through!

    92. mayan_moons on July 27th, 2007 6:30 pm

      Thank You Maggie!

      Have A Great Weekend!~

    93. 10061906 on July 27th, 2007 9:51 pm

      89 Maggie:
      In your link Anita said:
      “He said that she was able to walk and when he mentioned that he wanted to bring her [to the] hotel she didn’t want to go.”
      “Deepak says she was so inebriated that Joran had to assist her.”
      Are these guys getting their 20 some odd drugged/abduction escapades confused? They have done it so many times they don’t know which female tourist they’re talking about?

    94. IndyDan on July 27th, 2007 11:22 pm

      The fun pasttime on Aruba for the young jetset boys was dabbling in drugs and working the young American girls. Their endgame was to drug a young tourist girl, whisk her away to a place where they could all rape her, then dispose of her on the beach. One BIG problem, Natalee died in their custody and the Beach story no longer worked like it had the 20 times before.
      Aruba is very dangerous, even if you don’t get drugged and raped, you stand a real threat of getting ripped off by the leachers that suck upon the tourist trade.

    95. Carpe Noctem on July 27th, 2007 11:45 pm

      GretaWire Flashback: Inside the

      Hunt for Natalee Holloway

      Wednesday, July 25, 2007

    96. 10061906 on July 27th, 2007 11:52 pm

      (jerry) Waterboy: is this the woman you where looking for?
      First is R W Benson, Then Pitbull and then the decomposed body.

    97. Carpe Noctem on July 27th, 2007 11:52 pm

      … I tell ya, I am pissed at Greta for saying she


      that jam-blazed, oven roasted, ARUBAN POS JORAN VAN

      DER SLOOT too… that rapist and murderer, but (imo) Greta

      ain’t down with Camp ARUBA or SLOOT family of ghouls,

      I don’t think, anyway. -J4N

    98. Carpe Noctem on July 27th, 2007 11:58 pm

      Hey Joran,

      Wanna play a game of WHACK-A-MOLE, you little weenie?

      Why did ya have to kill Nat?

      “She only wanted a Pepsi!”

      -Cypress Hill

    99. Brie on July 28th, 2007 12:37 am

      Joran is a psychopath…among other things…he has been labeled by the FBI and the ALE…the problem is Straaten…the big bad guy….”I have seen the evidence”….so what have you seen…never said…typical of everything we’ve ever heard…it always stops there…a comment with nothing to back it up…this goes on all the time…bits and pieces…he made a statement! Why doesn’t he have to answer the ?, where is Natalee and what evidence have you seen? He is guilty of withholding information and prolonging the case to increase the grief and injustice to our American Families, the Holloways the Twitty’s and all of us that LOVE NATALEE.

    100. mayan_moons on July 28th, 2007 12:50 am

      I’d love to pound that Frankenstein noggin flat as a pancake with a mallet!~

    101. Carpe Noctem on July 28th, 2007 1:31 am

      VIDS and stuff:

    102. Brie on July 28th, 2007 1:43 am

      Straaten is the problem….not allowing the case to come to surface..Godchild….Joran could care less who you are!!! Your protecting yourself!!!!

    103. mayan_moons on July 28th, 2007 1:46 am

      But even if i did drop the mallet on Jurine…the 2 people who shared in creating the kind of person Jip has turned out to be are still arround raising 2 other sons…

    104. mayan_moons on July 28th, 2007 2:01 am

      Now thats a sobering thought isn’t it, all this crap about “I’ll do anything for my son” is TOTAL BS. Anita and Paul don’t give a damn about their kids coz NOT 1 decision have they made to date has been in the best interests of their sons!

    105. mayan_moons on July 28th, 2007 2:35 am

      Papa Sweat uses his underage teenage sons so he can skulk arround teen girls, chatting them up at the casino’s like he eid with Natalee, setting Jurine up with a credit line & open bar tab at 17 (we know of), prolly 16. Coming in contact with Natalee twice (verified) just 4 to 5 hours before she is never seen again. What are the odds of that Paul?

    106. Brie on July 28th, 2007 3:10 am

      Got that right Mayan…….kids, what are they!!!Permissive parents from day one. Just delicious sporters to them!!!! I think the whole family is porno, Paulus probably likes to hang out in San Nicholas, Anita looks she’s rode hard and put away wet, Joran the island whore. Paulus isn’t doing anything for his son and never has and neither has Anita, they’re problem is self created.Protect Joran, and save our selves. I think the 2 younger brothers, heredity problems are in a world of trouble, including environmental problems. They created Joran and allowed him to be what he is today!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    107. Brie on July 28th, 2007 3:12 am

      STRATTEN SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    108. Brie on July 28th, 2007 3:15 am

      OOOPS! STRAATEN SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    109. disgustedmom on July 28th, 2007 4:47 am

      Games, games and more games! That’s all the Arubans know how to do. They are so bored on that cramped island that it takes a boat or plane to get off of for even a minute. They probably resent the tourists who don’t have to stay there.

    110. Richard on July 28th, 2007 5:57 am

      For all of van der Straaten’s protestations about “I’ve seen the evidence and you haven’t,” it’s odd that no sign of Natalee’s body has been produced and no sign of any crime scene has been uncovered, at least to our knowledge.

      If he had seen any such evidence, as he seemed to say, then why has nothing been done? And if he’s seen evidence of a crime, then why hasn’t it sufficed to get convictions?

      I know, the cover-up.

      But I also think that Aruba may have been leading us to the line of least resistance. In other words, someone disappears … the immediate, and most natural, idea is that that person is dead.

      Were there a ransom demand or evidence of a runaway, that would be different. But as far as I know, no ransom demand was ever made. And nobody thinks for a second that Natalee ran away.

      Was Natalee held with the initial idea of seeking a ransom?
      Could be, but if so, her captors gave up on the idea early.
      And again, as far as I know there’s never been a sign of this happening.

      So where does this leave us? Is she indeed dead? That’s what Aruba wanted us to think from day one …. But if that’s indeed the case, what happened to all that “evidence” that van der Straaten mentioned, but which has never been produced (to my knowledge)?

      In this whole saga, as I’ve said before, we’re dealing with a place where, on Monday someone says “A,” on Tuesday someone says “B,” which contradicts “A,” and never are the two statements reconciled. They just hang out there like all the other lies of Aruba.

      Look at the long, sorry dispute about who’s in charge of the case, the Netherlands or Aruba? Never has there been a resolution of that question, apparently.

      There is no firm bedrock, truth is truth. It’s simply, as I said, a place where any statement is equally valid and none has to be proven. The Aruban “government” seems to be accountable to nobody, except maybe the drug dealers.

      So the point of all this is … the only thing we know is that certain persons on Aruba WANTED us to think that Natalee was dead. They said that’s what the evidence shows … but where is the evidence?

      Could these persons have other motives, such as trying to rule out other ideas? We do know that months after van der Straaten’s statement, Aruba was asking nearby nations to be on the lookout for Natalee.

      Another mystery, there; a real government would explain that discrepancy. Don’t expect answers from Aruba, though.

    111. disgustedmom on July 28th, 2007 6:22 am

      I’ve got it! Aruba is really the place people are sent to live when they are being punished. You have to kidnap a tourist for sale on the sex slave market or kill a witness to get to live off the island in Holland.

      Now I know why so many got to leave after Natalee went missing!

    112. Richard on July 28th, 2007 7:31 am

      Story from Canada today … two men were arrested for trafficking. Apparently they were part of a street gang, and gang rape was one tool they used to make women more compliant (probably to emphasize that their lives were at the mercy of their captors) for use in the sex business.

      I’m relieved to know that this couldn’t happen in Aruba.

      Human traffickers surrender in Ontario

      Two Nova Scotia men charged with being involved in a human-trafficking ring moving sex-trade workers across Canada walked into an Ontario police station and surrendered.

      Ernest Downey, 22, and Spencer Sinclair Thompson, 22, face charges of kidnapping, forcible confinement, human trafficking, gang sexual assault, assault and withholding documents.

      They were taken into custody Thursday are being held until Aug. 2 for a special bail hearing.

      Another Nova Scotia man, Thomas Junior Downey, 22, was arrested July 10 and faces the same charges.

      Anthony Roberts, 22, is still at large and believed to be in the Halifax area. He also faces similar charges and is considered dangerous.

      “We are keeping our eyes open for him,” Halifax Regional Police Const. Jeff Carr said.

      So far, there have been no confirmed sightings of the wanted fugitive.

      “But we do believe he’s out your way,” Peel Regional Police Special Victims Unit Det. John Weisman said. “That was the last we heard.”

      The charges against all four men stem from a June 28 incident at a downtown Mississauga apartment. A 19-year-old Nova Scotia woman was held against her will and gang-raped in what police say was an attempt to coerce her into working in the sex trade.

      Peel police say the four men may belong to a wider street gang involved in various criminal activities, including human trafficking, in the greater Toronto area.

      The gang goes by the name North Preston’s Finest, or NPF. It’s believed at least one of the men is originally from North Preston.

      The size of the street gang is still under investigation.

      “I’m not going to comment on that right now,” Weisman said. “But they are part of a gang.”

      Halifax police are working closely with the Peel Regional Police Special Victims Unit in case Roberts surfaces in metro.

      Metro vice detectives say the luring of young women into the sex trade and their subsequent transportation to the Toronto area is becoming a major problem.

      Sometimes the women believe they’ve entered a relationship with a man who then forces her into the sex trade.

      The women are also frequently told they can make large amounts of money quickly. They usually get introduced into the business by stripping, but then are coerced into working for escort agencies or as street prostitutes.

    113. Richard on July 28th, 2007 7:39 am

      In the above case, of course, Canada is a big country and Aruba is not. The implication is that Natalee was taken off the island.

      Just one more story, this one from the U.S. It seems that a man was kidnapped in Chicago, held bound and gagged in his car for days, and finally released in Laredo, Texas.

      The presumption is that illegal immigrants wanted to get back to Mexico (or points further south), needed a car, and didn’t want the theft reported to police. So they took the man and held him prisoner, for days, undetected.

      Of course, we know that moving a girl from Aruba to somewhere on South America, or elsewhere in the Caribbean, would be far too complicated and difficult. Besides, it doesn’t happen to Americans. This sort of thing is strictly tabloid invention.

      Illinois man tells bizarre tale; Clark claims he was kidnapped, robbed and dragged to Laredo
      Email to a friendPost a CommentPrinter-friendlyA disoriented businessman who claimed to have been kidnapped at gunpoint in Illinois and then robbed, ended up wandering Laredo’s north side Thursday, dehydrated and hungry.Police said the kidnappers denied him food for two days, tied him up with duct tape and drove him to Laredo, where he was later abandoned in the 4200 block of McPherson Road. The victim told police that he woke up weak and disoriented in the back of his Jeep Grand Cherokee and escaped.

      “He was let go pretty much unharmed but dehydrated, and he hadn’t eaten in two days,” police spokesman Jose E. Baeza said, adding that the man called police from a pay phone and was taken to Doctors Hospital.

      FBI officials questioned the man and later identified him as 33-year-old David Brian Clark, of Round Lake, Ill., and notified the Mundelein, Ill., Police Department of his whereabouts.

      “We are working with the FBI from Chicago and other local officials in Illinois to investigate this matter,” said Norman Townsend, supervisory senior resident agent of the Laredo FBI office. He refused to comment further.

      Baeza said Clark told police he was kidnapped Monday night in Mundelein while on his way home to Round Lake with a night deposit of $1,000 – a day’s business earnings. According to police, Clark owns a “restaurant or pub.”

      According to police reports, Clark filled his vehicle with gasoline and, worried something was wrong with his brakes, pulled up behind the gas station to check what was the matter.

      “When he stopped and exited the vehicle, an unknown male subject grabbed him from behind and pointed a semi-automatic handgun at him,” Baeza said. “The subject then ordered the victim to drive.”

      Clark told police he was ordered to drive past two tollbooths at gunpoint and subsequently ordered to pick up a second kidnapper.

      The two Spanish-speaking men then tied Clark’s hands and feet together with duct tape and lay him down on his side in the back of the vehicle. Then they drove past the state line.

      “Throughout the ride, both suspects conversed in Spanish and made several stops,” Baeza said. “The victim did not know where he was being taken or what route they were traveling.”

      Weak and disoriented, Clark escaped from his kidnappers after realizing he had been left alone in the vehicle.

      “He woke up and didn’t hear any noise or voices,” Baeza said of Clark’s version of the story. “He managed to get himself loose, open the car door and get out.”

      Baeza said Clark called police Wednesday, at 2:16 a.m.

      “He was passing out because he was so weak,” Baeza added.

      The kidnappers stole Clark’s $1,000 deposit, laptop computer, wallet and other personal belongings, police said.

      The Mundelein Police Department, which is handling the investigation, asked the Laredo Police Department to process the vehicle for evidence and latent prints.

      The Grand Cherokee was picked up from the 4200 block of McPherson Road and taken to the Laredo Police property facility Wednesday morning.

      “If we drove it back to Illinois, a lot of evidence would be lost,” Baeza said. “They would rather us process the vehicle.”

      The duct tape used to tie Clark was also recovered at the scene.

      Clark described the suspects as two Hispanic men between the ages of 30 and 40 years, with dark complexions, medium builds and clean shaven.

      If found, the two kidnappers would be charged with first-degree felony aggravated kidnapping, punishable by up to life in prison.

      Investigators with the Mundelein Police Department could not be reached for comment Thursday.

    114. 10061906 on July 28th, 2007 9:47 am

      Apparently the Freewinds cruise ship had docked in Aruba several times in 2005.
      Does anyone know the dates of one of its’ arrival and departures?
      It was around the time that Natalee disappeared; but I can’t find the exact dates.

    115. Waterboy (Jerry) on July 28th, 2007 10:21 am


      If Natalee were sold and taken off the island, (I don’t believe she was. I think she was murdered and put in a dumpster.) but, if she were taken off the island, we have already heard from the pick-up man, and it was the gardner-fhunting-fishing guide. He was there by his own admission, and he had access to a boat capable of going anywhere.

      Why he would report ever seeing the ‘boys-demons” I don’t know, unless someone else saw him and the boys together, and he went on the defense to exclude himself from the circle. He could and probable is also innocent. I’m just pointing out some inconsistencies I see.

      You will also notice that he is always described as a gardner, but never as a fishing-hunting guide. Why would a gardner be up and going to work at 3 or 4 in the morning?

      I’ve been on many hunting trips where we would be saddled up and on the trail by 3 in the morning, and that means 45 minute prep time, i.e. packing horses, saddling etc. . On the Indian reservations, they (the Indians) are not on time for anything, with the exception of the 3 am departure time for a hunting trip. If you are there at 3:05, you will be scratching your head and looking at an empty corral. However, I’ve never mowed the lawn at that hour.


    116. Waterboy (Jerry) on July 28th, 2007 10:39 am

      to 10061906,

      (jerry) Waterboy: is this the woman you where looking for?
      First is R W Benson, Then Pitbull and then the decomposed body.

      Comment by 10061906 | July 27, 2007, 11:52 pm

      Possible, this is the “girl”. However, they described her as a woman.
      Is she wrapped in plastic? Strange.


    117. Smish on July 28th, 2007 12:11 pm

      To #114~1006
      Woo hoo….I found a pdf file of cruises to aruba in may,2005
      I’m not sure I know how to post it here but if it doesn’t post correctly,just email me and I’ll send it through email to you.Freewinds is on there,they were renamed from Commodore.This is pretty cool,has number of passengers,arrival and departure times etc.
      Here goes….

    118. 10061906 on July 28th, 2007 1:03 pm

      Be patient with me; I’m chasing a wild lead.
      Does anyone know the circumstances around Joran killing his pet dog?
      What was the dog’s name?
      About when did this happen?
      How long had they had they dog?

    119. disgustedmom on July 28th, 2007 1:29 pm

      Wow! I am starting to put more of my eggs into the kidnapped and sold into slavery basket!

      So like…don’t go to these links if you don’t want to see nudity as some of the adds feature topless girls….but if you do go, just look at that endless list of Caribbean Fantasy Tour offerings where you get a playmate/escort! And they offer to film your adventure too! I am amazed! All this on one site? And they stopped updating in 2005!…after having kept it up to date since 1986!

      The first link is here….….and from there I clicked on ‘maps’ and got this….…which shows destinations.

      So I’m sure a lot of these girls signed up for the job, but we all know that is not always the case.

    120. disgustedmom on July 28th, 2007 1:42 pm

      1006…about the dog…when I read about the killing the first time it was said the dog was killed 2 weeks before Natalee’s trip. As the story went, Joran was angered by the dog and killed it, but he blamed it on some neighbor kid and the kid denied it.

      There was a picture circulating around with Joran and a dog that the VDS’s no longer had when Natalee went missing. Joran appears to be the age he was in 2005, so I assumed that dog was the one that he killed. It was black and white -might have had some brown mixed in, medium sized and was not a shorthair is all I an recall.

      The picture was from one of the VDS albums that included other such things as how cool the delicious sporter was that was offered up on the internet after Natalee went missing to prove he was a normal boy. Yuck! but anyway…good luck with your investigation….please fill us in ‘in this thread’ if you find any of these answers. I don’t want to miss what you might find out!

    121. ben on July 28th, 2007 2:02 pm

      Have any of you ever been to,it looks interesting but all the answers to questions are played backwards,how do you find what they mean.

    122. ben on July 28th, 2007 2:22 pm

      !110,,,,,Concerning van der stratton is there a recording or news coverage of him making that statement,Ive heard the statement was made but dont recall seein him say it.If a american journalist has footage of it ,are was personally told that,,then it needs to be brought back to front of this case.

    123. Waterboy (Jerry) on July 28th, 2007 2:50 pm

      Joran killed his dog with a paint-ball gun. If you have ever been shot with one, you can understand. Most places limit the velocity to 200 feet/second. Some guns have adjustments to 700 feet/second. At 700 feet/second most paint balls break before leaving the muzzle of the gun, unless they have been frozen or they are old. I got the hide pealed from the back of my hand one time, and the lady that shot me was over 75 feet away, and obeying the 200-feet/second rule. I think the paint ball is 68 cal.

      I have a .445 cal. Pellet gun that will put a 130-grain pellet through 3 sheets of ¾ inch plywood or 3 2X4s. It’s basically a high-powered paint ball gun (velocity 700+feet/second). It’s not hard to make a paint ball gun lethal. It only depends on what you shoot in it and how fast the projectile is going.


    124. mayan_moons on July 28th, 2007 4:01 pm

      LOL at “Anita looks like she’s been rode hard & put away wet”

      Very true Brie!

    125. Maggie on July 28th, 2007 4:31 pm

      1006, I think the lying thing is a strategy they used all along in this case. I also believe this is a weekly game they engaged in with tourist girls. They aren’t looking for girls who will say yes, they are looking for the ones who won’t say yes. Makes the game more fun for them.

      Waterboy, Jerry, I don’t believe Natalee was taken off the island or sold either. Taken off the island to get rid of the body, maybe. Lots of female tourists have gone to Aruba from the USA and really have heard of no others disappearing forever.

      No evidence because noone bothered collecting any or searching for 9 days, plenty of time to get rid of her. No crime scene because noone knew where they took her.. first it was the Holiday Inn to throw people off second it was the beach 9 days later. I think it was all a plan though. Straten on the scene. He saw the evidence and was ready to pin it on the 2 guards and had Beth not seen that tape, Natalee may have surfaced and they would be doing time.
      Noone sits around and makes up all these lies when they are innocent or refuses to talk and then goes on a media tour trying to tell people it was all Natalee’s and Beths fault while trying to sell books to make money, changing the story everytime and lying more.

      Straten and the Sloots, Dompig and Boeti and the Kalpoes, Jacobs and Straten still meeting after Straten was taken off the case. Joran is friends with Dompig’s son as well as the Kalpoes, Guido and Arlene Shippers working for AHATA, GVC friends with Steve Croes. Those late night visits to Jorans with Paulus attending were more than watching movietime with popcorn.

      No matter how many stories he tells or appearances the facts remain the same. Natalee was last seen in the company of these 3 and she’s never been seen again and they have all lied and lied for 2 years. There is no coroboration for anything they say after leaving Carlos n Charlies. That’s what you look for to clear someone, but guess what 2 years later they have found none, thats why they are still the main suspects. Someone gets on the internet for a few. Who knows who it was Deepak and Satish has a sister, could be either Satish or Deepak. Someone made calls who knows who that was. Could be anyone. Someone went to the trouble to hide the shoes, noone bothered collecting the clothes they wore the night the cops arrived. The last known people would be your main suspects, until you can eliminate them. They knew right off Joran lied when he said he didn’t know her, also they went to the Holiday Inn and Deepak couldn’t identify the guard who got her. Besides people working at that Holiday Inn didn’t even wear black clothes. So the cops knew, lies, lies.

      Deepak wanted to throw an investigation off because he knew there was going to be one. Paulus, Joran and the family sat around the pool and made up the Holiday Inn story, because they knew Natalee’s family would be there, I just don’t think they knew how soon they would be, That’s why he had to get them away from the house on a wild goose chase that night for an hour or more. Deepak Satish, and Joran were probably there all along. They probably took her away from the house, while they were out looking for Joran or that’s what they were doing when the cops and Beth arrived. Anything to kill some time there for a bit.

    126. 10061906 on July 28th, 2007 5:12 pm

      I have a pix of Joran with two dogs a large brown one and a much smaller sort of black and light brown with white traces around the mouth. There were two dogs when the dutch arrived for the dog and pony show. So there must have been a third dog. The one he supposed to have killed. Carpe has mention Natalee was shot. Well there is your gun. Thanks waterboy and disgustedmom.

    127. disgustedmom on July 28th, 2007 9:25 pm

      1006….about the dogs again…

      I appologize for bringing the psychic factor back in, but…

      Way early on before any of the Greta interviews at the VDS house a psychic posted about a dream had about 6 months prior to Natalee going missing. At the time she had the dream she said she didn’t know who the girl was that was in trouble, nor of course did she know any of the other players she saw in the dream. It was only when Natalee’s graduation picture showed up on the news that she realized her dream had been about Natalee Holloway.

      In that dream she saw 3 dogs at the house Natalee was at, all brownish mutt-like dogs. (she described the dogs in detail but I can’t remember much, but she said she was a dog lover so she paid particular attention to the dogs in her dream and they were all brownish with not too long of hair and one had really short hair) When Greta showed the VDS house the time the dogs were in it, the psychic posted that the 2 dogs on the news show was 2 of the same she had seen in her dream but the short haired one was not there. I figured after hearing that Joran had killed one of his dogs 2 weeks prior to Natalee’s trip, and considering that this person dreamed her dream 6 months prior to Natalee’s trip, that at the time of her dream there WERE 3 dogs.

      The one missing though was brown too, not black and white like the one I saw in the picture with Joran. So I went searching and found this picture that someone had saved from Joran’s zorpia site….

      It is a very short haired brown dog!

      I was so creeped out, I had to post this. And now I’m wondering what became of the black and white one! How many dogs has Joran killed?

    128. 10061906 on July 28th, 2007 10:11 pm

      disgustedmom: In Dave’s book; someone mentions in it that Natalee is buried with a family member. I know people who have lost pets and are quite upset as if they lost a family member: I know I was, that is why I will never own another pet.
      Deepak; “if they see the sh-t on the girl”
      I know this is cruel but maybe the pimps after they were finished decided to use Natalee as a target using the paintball gun. I would not put anything past those perps.
      Something bad could have happened with that and would be a reason for Natalee’s body to disappear.

      You mentioned the pet cemetery before.

    129. 10061906 on July 28th, 2007 10:47 pm
    130. disgustedmom on July 28th, 2007 11:20 pm

      1006…Those pet cemetary pictures are absolutely EERIE! How easy it would be to bury a human body there. Seems a bit deserted!

      I haven’t read Dave’s book. I tried to get it at the book store a couple weeks ago, but they said they don’t carry it instock anymore (BooksAMillion)….so you’re saying Dave mentioned that Natalee was buried with a family member? Did he say how he came to conclude this? Was this information the precipitous for the damage at the crypts in Aruba? If so, could that have been to throw off from the pet cemetary like you said – a pet is often times considered a family member!

      Do you recall a post I made a while back about Charles Croes answering a question on some aruba trip message board where the question was asked if any humans were buried in the pet cemetary? (yes, our CC’s from that cell phone company of his…was identified with his name on the board)The poster asked this other person directly -not CC- because she had seen a grave marker with dates too old to have been a dog. CC’s came in and answered quickly that no humans are buried there! The poster had also asked about the history of the pet cemetary but CC didn’t answer that part. He was only interested in saying ‘no humans buried there’. I wish I could find that site again where he posted and check the date on it…see if it was before or after Natalee.

    131. Carpe Noctem on July 29th, 2007 9:02 am


      That pic you posted of Joran’s dog

      from the Zorpia site is supposedly

      named “Choller.”

      Hey real creative J. That would

      be like naming you dink weed.


    132. disgustedmom on July 29th, 2007 10:49 am

      Carpe….thanks! Do you know if that dog is/was in fact Joran’s dog? I was just going by the site that had uploaded the pic from Joran’s zorpia site.

      One more question….what does Choller mean in Papiomento or Dutch of whatever?

    133. Carpe Noctem on July 29th, 2007 10:54 am

      hi dm,

      On his Zorpia site,

      in his profile (or somewhere)

      he ID’d the dog as his dog.

      Choller = Drug Dealer

    134. Carpe Noctem on July 29th, 2007 10:55 am

      > Papiamento

    135. 10061906 on July 29th, 2007 12:01 pm

      disgustedmom: If you think those are strange, try this one.
      In Dave’s book on page 56 he mentions a dvd he received and it had on it in Anita’s voice that Natalee was buried with a family member. Dave only repeated not originated.
      Remember merian ernest an “where is jake?”

    136. 10061906 on July 29th, 2007 12:08 pm

      Yes and by the way I remember the conversation about being questioned if any humans were buried in the pet cemetery. Remember Rene and Pitbull. Theirs’ was a message. They could have just buried them in the PC and they would never have been found.
      If you still want a copy of Dave’s book/ Try here. I posted this last night but it seems it did not make it to SM.

    137. ben on July 29th, 2007 12:15 pm

      Oreallllly has not shown one bit of remorse about his Natalee , SLANDER.

    138. Scared Monkeys Weekend Caption Contest … Man Found Drown in Aruba : Scared Monkeys on July 29th, 2007 1:16 pm

      [...] picture is from this past weeks Amigoe where a presumed homeless man was found drown floating near the shore at Bikker & Gomez at [...]

    139. disgustedmom on July 29th, 2007 2:43 pm

      Thanks Carpe, for indentifying the dog was Joran’s and the name translation.

      1006…..Holy Cripes! I have to get a copy of Dave’s book! He got a dvd saying that? Sounding like Anita too? Family member = Joran’s dog is becoming more believable than ever…and that Jake remark? Might be a clue to the actual spot but could just be another clue to lead to the PC.

      The PC is such a great hiding place for so many reasons we have covered before, such as the proximity to the International School so anyone driving around to ‘check if a particular grave might have been disturbed’ would not be obvious. Also, who would go around digging up all the graves in a PC in an attempt to find out which one may hold Natalee? Disturbing the pets of strangers would be such a sad thing and almost impossible to get permission to do…and the cadavor dogs would be thrown off by the smell of canines so finding a human that way would probably not work very well.

      It’s perfect, if you ask me.

      Well, some ideas as to how to find Natalee’s spot in a PC might be to look near the perimeters near the road because they would want to ‘see if all is OK’ in passing by without having to even slow down. Also, I would look for a marker in the center of a grave rather than at the head or foot…reason being for being able to see ‘on the fly’ if the grave has been disturbed by simply seeing the if the marker is down.

      I have a question that maybe someone can answer….it’s really weird, but that same psychic who talked about the dogs (and other things that have been validated as far as I’m concerned) said something about ‘a trampoline or a word that sounds like trampoline in some foreign language’. Anyone have any ideas on this?

    140. 10061906 on July 29th, 2007 8:38 pm

      The absolute worse scenario. Victim dies and godfather hires known gravedigger.
      “Get rid of this body in the body bag. I don’t want to know where, but someplace where she is never found. Here is half now and the rest when you come back.”
      Gravedigger comes back in a few days to get rest of pay. Realizes who he buried and demands more money. Gravedigger is silenced and thrown in cemetery or is set on fire and called a suicide. No body, no case no trail.

    141. disgustedmom on July 30th, 2007 8:27 am

      1006, the drowned homeless man washing ashore does make one wonder what they do with it now?

      Maybe some gravediggers are used to burying bodies in bags without even asking any questions. But that would suggest Aruba would put out a couple bucks to have a body buried, and somehow I don’t see that happening. Maybe the cops are in charge of burying bodies….just part of the job.

      But where, I wonder? Where will this homeless man end up? Is there some mass grave pit area where the ‘found’ bodies are just thrown? Or maybe they burn them up at the hospital incinerator?

      It would be interesting to know what they are going to do with this man.

    142. Amsterdam 020 on July 30th, 2007 11:35 am

      “there is no denying the fact that Joran Van der Sloot admitted killing Natalee, led the Police to her body”…

      ehmm Patti, when did this happen? Did I miss something?

    143. Brenda on July 30th, 2007 3:18 pm


      Thx for insite into JVD’s first KNOWN killing of another life form out of rage.

      The time-frame for this event IS important. To me is displays JVD’s increasing violence in the days leading to Nat’s disappearance.

      Remember the neighbor boy I wrote of above? Started with killing baby birds – ended “accidentally” killing his girlfriend during a drunken rage behind the wheel? Learned later girlfriend HAD already broken up with him earlier in the week, but she agreed to “talk” at his urging. Instead, he races down a winding road next to the New River at 65 MPH, wrecks, kills her. His excuse? Trying to “scare her”.

      What is up with the excuses for poor behavior. Accountability anyone???

      Yeah, Joran was just “helping Nat have a good time”…right?


    144. Brenda on July 30th, 2007 3:19 pm

      Hey…SM…why no more numbering on posts? How do we agree and/or fight without such to reference?

      Thx… :>)

      SM: Don’t you think it’s easier to read now? You can reference the posters name and time of post (klaasend)

    145. herb on July 30th, 2007 5:25 pm

      SM: I too like the numbers. I can remember a number much easier than a post time or person. Enjoy reading the posts but usually have to take long breaks. Thanks

    146. mayan_moons on July 30th, 2007 6:19 pm

      I have to break away for long periods also and the numbers help so much……TIA!

    147. elisabeth on July 31st, 2007 5:53 am

      it is very difficult to follow a thread without numbers, please Klaas….

    148. Smish on July 31st, 2007 7:53 am

      I too liked the numbered posts but this new page is much easier to read and look….I can qoute author now because I can now copy and paste.
      mayan_moons on July 30th, 2007 6:19 pm
      I have to break away for long periods also and the numbers help so much……TIA!

    149. Smish on July 31st, 2007 7:54 am

      AND there are smileys!
      :) ))

    150. stoney on July 31st, 2007 11:45 am

      Ok somebody who follows thi scase closely answer something I have come across. I saw a website that said the room at the HI in Aruba they showed on tv with Beth was not the real room Natalee stayed in. What’s this about?

    151. 10061906 on July 31st, 2007 1:47 pm

      stoney: The room would have had two queen size beds and a patio door on the ground level.

    152. anne on July 31st, 2007 7:18 pm

      The theory of the pet cemetary is intriguing. However, now that it’s out there, what can be done? I wish Natalee’s family could hire an undercover somebody to check this out. Not everything can be done on the up-and-up when you are dealing with things so far below the level of decency.

    153. mayan_moons on July 31st, 2007 10:12 pm

      Thanks for pointing out that we can cut & paste now Mishy, i’ve not had time to try it since its been up just a few days!

    154. Sharon Chicago on August 1st, 2007 3:28 pm

      Do you think they buried Natalee at the pet cemetary thinking No One would ever look there?

      Was Joran’s dog buried there two weeks before
      he killed Natalee?

    155. Sharon Chicago on August 1st, 2007 3:30 pm

      Scared Monkeys…I hate those horrible spiders you now have trampling all over your home page. Pleazzzzze get rid of them pleazzzzzzze

    156. Libby on August 2nd, 2007 1:11 pm

      Hey Minnesota Dad….are you and your family okay? What a terrible tragedy out there.

    157. stoney on August 3rd, 2007 8:42 am

      I too am worried about Minnesota Dad, has anybody heard from here?

    158. 10061906 on August 3rd, 2007 10:03 am

      From this last photo at C and C’s; Natalee is dancing with what appears to be a male and about 6 foot 2 inches or more. Was that male ever identified?

    159. Libby on August 3rd, 2007 11:18 am

      I am worried too. I hope MD and his family are okay.

      I had seen that photo too 1906. Too bad we can’t see who it is.

      Any word when Texas Equusearch is going to return to Aruba to do another water search?

    160. Vicki on August 3rd, 2007 11:59 am

      Klaas, you all are heating up the boards with this caption…isnt that crazy???? I hope and pray MD is okay and his family…thats horrible what happened there….

    161. 10061906 on August 3rd, 2007 12:02 pm

      I don’t want to start any controversies; but I do have a few questions.
      If the picture on the beach with Natalee, Lee and Ruth was taken with Natalee’s disposable camera has the person who took the photo been identified?
      If the picture of Natalee dancing at C and C’s was in fact taken May 29th, 2005 what was the source of that photo, who took it and about what time was it taken?
      If the photo of Natalee lying on the bar was indeed taken May29th, 2005 what was the source of that photo, who took it and about what time was it taken?
      Why did the Twitty’s confiscate the cameras and memory cards from all the MBHS students on the trip with Natalee? Why were they never returned intact and if any were preserved what would they have shown?
      Why have no other photos from that trip ever been posted?
      There were approximately 127 people on this trip; multiply that by one camera per person, multiply that by 100 photos. The means that almost 12,700 photos could have been taken and yet we see only four(?) Ok even 20 pictures per person would be over 2500 photos.
      As an example: I traveled for 5 days with two digital cameras and took over 500 photos and three hours of video.
      What kind of restraint has been placed on the students that traveled with Natalee? Whatever it was no one has posted anything on “Flickr” or even “Community Webshots”.
      The other thing that bothers me is: The second flyers that were posted said “KIDNAPPED”and show the beach photo. Where and when did Natalee’s disposable camera film get developed, where was it scanned and who put together the “KIDNAPPED” flyer and when was it posted. Another question would be is; what other photos where on that roll of film?

    162. Vicki on August 3rd, 2007 12:16 pm

      1906-i didnt see any photos of Natalee on the bar laying down…Do you have that pic?The flyers that say kidnapped I believe were done by Julia R and its er cell number on the poster…

    163. Libby on August 3rd, 2007 12:33 pm

      I asked about other pictures taken too. There has to be a ton of photos somewhere. Other pictures could tell alot about what happened…and who she was hanging with.

      Not sure who made the kidnapping poster. I think it was made shortly after the BS story about the Holiday Inn. Maybe they just assumed she was kidnapped…in essence she was…kidnapped by Joran and the K brothers. Joran claimed to be there on vacation or whatever. I’m sure Natalee had no idea she was not being taken back to the Holiday Inn.

    164. Vicki on August 3rd, 2007 1:50 pm

      I think the most amazing thing is that these filthy pigs got away with this for so long…also 1906, the picture with an arm and a look alike shirt of Natalee was proven NOT to be her right here at SM…now who do we know that has photocropping done…..

    165. 10061906 on August 3rd, 2007 3:06 pm

      I’m no expert but when I copied and cropped the bar photo to the beach photo I was able to get a match on the pattern. So I don’t know if I’m accurate or not and probably never will know. The same with the part of a female top that was found. We’ll never know for sure.
      The amazing thing is they (3) should have been convicted of abandoning a person they took from a bar, could not take care of herself
      (Deepak says she was terribly inebriated) and went missing. That carried I believe four years and that’s the truth right out of Jossy’s mouth. Why aren’t they in prison at least for that felony??????????????????????

    166. 10061906 on August 3rd, 2007 3:26 pm

      If that is Natalee in that C and C photo; it would have had to have been taken between 9:30PM and before 11:00pm. That appears to be Lee also in the photo and she, Madison and Ruth left around 11:00PM.

    167. Waterboy (Jerry) on August 3rd, 2007 6:13 pm

      Deepak; “if they see the sh-t on the girl”?I know this is cruel but maybe the pimps after they were finished decided to use Natalee as a target using the paintball gun. I would not put anything past those perps.?Something bad could have happened with that and would be a reason for Natalee’s body to disappear.?
      You mentioned the pet cemetery before.


      I just read your comment carefully, and you may have something there. If the pimps were really being mean to Natalee, and shot her repeatly with paintballs, it would be bad. At close range on uncovered skin, the paint penetrates the epidermis and cannot be removed.

      This might be the “if they see the sh-t on the girl.’ When you bruise, you loose blood. If your whole body is bruised, think of the blood loss that would occur. I got hit once in the lower part of the bicep muscle just below the level of my T-shirt. It was a lucky shot at over 100 yards, but it made a tremendous bruise, and hurt like hell. Can you imagine being shot over and over again at close range?


    168. brian on August 3rd, 2007 7:09 pm

      Is the report from the airport worker true that stated Natalee left on one of the private McWane jet flights out of Aruba? Is it also true that the McWane jet changed flight plans after takeoff?

      SM: No it’s not true. You must be spending too much time reading over at Refugees. (klaasend)

    169. 10061906 on August 3rd, 2007 8:43 pm

      Waterboy; you’re the one that got me hooked on the paintball gun theory.
      Do you rememebr a site a few years ago called: “Hunting for Bambi”?
      The pimps could have tried a take off on this. Who really knows???

    170. Vicki on August 4th, 2007 11:32 am

      with a nutcase like urine anything is possible. Brian, come on man…its been over 2 years..stop reading at that site…they are the spinmasters….

    171. Waterboy (Jerry) on August 4th, 2007 12:57 pm

      to 10061906,

      I looked it up, and as bizarre as it sounds, there could be something here.


    172. Waterboy (Jerry) on August 4th, 2007 4:15 pm

      To all monkeys,

      I would love to know what web sites Joran had bookmarked on his laptop. I think they were all removed, and the hard drive wiped clean. Most likely, most of them have been re-added. Wouldn’t law enforcement have legitimate grounds to impound the thing?


    173. elisabeth on August 6th, 2007 3:02 pm

      a usually well informed journalist in the Netherlands writes in his blog that the house search on Aruba a few weeks ago was planned for the application of microphones prior to a planned vacation of Joran

    174. 10061906 on August 8th, 2007 4:53 pm

      Again; just a reminder if any are interested; there is a Tourist Info show in the Philadelphia Area in November, 2007.
      The ATA is represented in booths 417-18-19 and 516-18-20.
      And is represented by this US Travel Agency.

    175. Waterboy (Jerry) on August 8th, 2007 7:33 pm

      Picky, picky, picky. I’m afraid I need to clear something up. In the article, it says that the paintball comes out of the barrel at 200 miles/hour. I said that most ranges limit the speed to 200 feet/second. What does 200 miles/hour translate into feet per second? It seems that 1 mile/hour = about 1.44444 feet per second. So if you read the article carefully, they say they shoot the naked ladies at 200 miles/hour, which would translate into almost 300 feet/second. I don’t think so! They wouldn’t want to kill someone. I think they mean 200 feet/second.

      Boring stuff, I know. But come on news media; let’s get something, anything right.


    176. 10061906 on August 8th, 2007 7:55 pm

      With two knowns:
      5280 feet equals one mile
      3600 seconds in an hour
      If I did my math correctly
      200mph= 200×5280/3600=293ft/sec
      200mph is 47% faster then 200ft/sec
      I had nothing better to do except to start painting the ceiling….
      At what speed is a paintball lethal?????????

    177. EG on August 8th, 2007 8:32 pm

      Has anyone heard any updates on when TES is heading back to Aruba ?

    178. Libby on August 9th, 2007 8:30 am

      EG, I have been asking the same thing. About month or more ago they said they were heading back to Aruba in 2-3 weeks.

    179. Brian on September 17th, 2007 6:08 pm

      I hope these Guys get whats coming to them. Hopefully, they’ll be put on Trial in the Usa. ** Bastards

    180. Tourist Dies in Aruba … Drowns at Conchi … Aruba, “It has a beautiful view, but a visit is not without danger” … Natalee Holloway would attest the Same | Scared Monkeys on January 10th, 2008 9:47 am

      [...] So once again an individual drowns in the waters of Aruba; however, manages to be found as the waves push the drowning victim to shore. However, for some reason when it comes to the case of missing Natalee Holloway individuals have speculated that she drown and the 3 former suspects, Joran Van der Sloot, Depak and Satish Kalpoe had no involvement. Why is it when Natalee Holloway drown her body was never recovered, yet other drowning victims were? [...]

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